Not looking good for us

[Private Fraser]

We’re doomed ,  all doomed 

[rusty69]

Don't panic. Don't panic 

[robtheplod]

I'm still trying to get my head around boaters only account for 11% of income.......

 

Who volunteers to rename their boat 'Cressy 2' and do the necessary?? 

Edited February 8, 2023 by robtheplod

[Alan de Enfield]

56 minutes ago, robtheplod said:

I'm still trying to get my head around boaters only account for 11% of income.......

 

You misread the sentence :

 

CRT has begun another boat licence consultation, warning that boat licence fees – currently 11% of income – may need to rise by far more than the rate of inflation. 

 

C&RTs total income is £214.6 million

Income from boat LICENCES is £24 million (Source : C&RT published accounts 2021-22)

Edited February 8, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Philip said:

 

How do you define 'Northern' and 'Midland' canals? You could argue that the Shropshire Union from Audlem upwards and the Trent & Mersey above Harecastle are in the north, and it's hard to see these being allowed to mothball.

 

When I think of the Northern waterways I mean the lesser used ones like the Huddersfild canals, the Rochdale, L&L, The A&C, The South Yorkshire navigations.

 

Unless things have changed they were always much quieter than the likes of the T&M.

[Arthur Marshall]

The only bits of heritage the current government cares much about appears to be statues or plaques celebrating the slave trade. Everything else, from historic buildings to libraries and parks , is being dismantled or just left to rot. The canal system is no different, and the ridiculous demands of the heritage industry just hasten the decline.

CRT could make a fortune simply by designating huge swathes if the K&A, London and possibly Birmingham canals as residential moorings, charging accordingly and enforcing it properly. There is no other way they can make the canals work on a commercial basis.

There's no reason for well off hobby boaters to complain - the canals were built for commercial reasons and this is just repurposing.

At the moment, nobody seems to know what the system is for, just a bodge between a working navigation, a recreation facility and a water supply for farmers, who repay the  compliment by poisoning the fish.

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

CRT could make a fortune simply by designating huge swathes if the K&A, London and possibly Birmingham canals as residential moorings, charging accordingly and enforcing it properly.

 

I very much agree, except for the Planning Permission problem. CRT would simply not get it. I would object for a start, along with all my neighbours! 

 

The way around this is to do the first bit you suggest i.e. designate the waterway residential and charge accordingly, i.e.£5k a year per boat, but declare it a CC waterway. 

 

That way they get the income necessary, and all the freeloading liveaboards would pay up as all alternative accommodation options are still a shedload more expensive. 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

CRT could make a fortune simply by designating huge swathes if the K&A, London and possibly Birmingham canals as residential moorings, charging accordingly and enforcing it properly.

 

I don't think that C&RT can 'simply' designate any moorings (either leisure or residential) without the correct planning permission. 

 

I think it very unlikely that any Local Authority would grant permission for unlimited linear housing estates on any waterways 

 

 

Edit to Add : that must be a 1st MTB and I agreeing on something !

Edited February 8, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[howardang]

14 hours ago, MartynG said:

Maybe a move to salty water is the way to go.

The end of boating on the inland waterways seems very close.

 

 

I certainly feel a distinct change in attitudes concerning our  inland waterways in recent years both from CRT and also  if the amount of newcomers asking questions about canals recently is any indication. A large proportion of these newbie enquirers seem to me to have absolutely no interest in what the inland waterways are all about, but rather how can they get involved so that they can find somewhere cheap  to live which will reduce their outgoings. That is no bad thing in these days of austerity necessarily, however the growing number of "rose tinted" press articles are very misleading and frequently lead people up the wrong garden path. Sadly, if we are not careful we are going to lose something of great importance, and once gone it will never be replaced. I know it may be a controversial thing to say and that it may annoy some people but I sometimes wonder if this web site is sometimes too helpful in some of these cases when it quickly becomes apparent that the sole purpose of the queries is to enable someone to find a cheap alternative to their housing situation.

 

Regarding the comment that a move to salt water boating may be the way to go for some present boaters,  it is certainly a thought worth considering, and for some it might be the answer. However, it is not for everyone and for those who do decide to get their "boating fix" in this way they will certainly have to consider that one of the adaptations needed will be that they will need to become much more "boat minded"  and become familiar with concepts that some boaters presently seem to push to the back of the mind (seamanship/boatmanship) and regard as relatively unimportant.  I think that the percentage of boaters presently on the inland waterways who decide to give salty water boating a try might be relatively low, and for the remainder  I think we may well  be seeing an upsurge in mobile homes and caravans on our already crowded roads! Happy days;  I'm only glad that we decided to hang up our windlasses when we did.🤥

 

Howard

[Momac]

9 minutes ago, howardang said:

  I think we may well  be seeing an upsurge in mobile homes and caravans on our already crowded roads!

My observation in particular based on the the numbers of motorhomes seen on the roads and in pub car parks would be that is already happening . And it seems  to be a more affordable hobby as an alternative to boating.

 

For me the issue is I  just can't get excited about motorhomes and a caravan is a definitely not for me.

 

17 minutes ago, howardang said:

Regarding the comment that a move to salt water boating may be the way to go for some present boaters,  it is certainly a thought worth considering, 

I can and do take my  boat on salty water occasionally but not really sure keeping a boat on the coast full time is what I would like to do. 

Other considerations include coastal marina charges tend to be higher than inland and  there would certainly be an availability issue if there was  a move of significant numbers of boaters  to the coast 

[Alan de Enfield]

57 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Other considerations include coastal marina charges tend to be higher than inland and  there would certainly be an availability issue if there was  a move of significant numbers of boaters  to the coast 

 

I have found that a 'full service marina' on the coast is pretty much on the par with similar on the Inland waterways - some are a bit more expensive - particularly  along the south coast. When we left our Aquavista mooring at Newark our 'new' mooring at a North Wales coastal marina, was almost exactly the same cost.

 

At inland marinas there are 'additional on-costs' for a boat wider than 7 feet, as well as additional licence costs for wide beams.

Coastal marinas tend to be geared up for 12- 14-16 foot beam as standard

 

There are, however. considerable cost savings in that you do not need a licence (£1000 ? pa) or a BSS, so you can actually pay a consierable premium at a coastal marina and still be cost neutral.

[Bod]

13 hours ago, Rob-M said:

I was idling through the Historic England web site the other day and was surprised at the number of listed canal structures.  No wonder it costs so much for repairs and takes so long.

I believe that C&RT is the 3rd largest owner of Listed structures, after the National Trust and Church of England.

 

Bod

[Philip]

I think some people are jumping the gun a bit here, there's no suggestion that funding will be completely cut even beyond the end of the current CRT grant. It's probably inevitable that license fees will gradually go up over the years, hopefully not hugely so. There are other ways to save money - replacing wooden lock gates with steel ones which can then last 50-60 years or more. We might have to sacrifice some 'traditional' features, but if it helps keep the canals open and in working order then it'll be no bad thing.

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Philip said:

...........there's no suggestion that funding will be completely cut even beyond the end of the current CRT grant

 

I think there is.

 

C&RT have been 'caught cooking the books' (amending the accounts after publishing them) and following DEFRAs review of the C&RT KPIs and performance earlier in 2022, the announcement of continued funding (until 2027), which was required to be in July, (2022) was cancelled and they said the decision would be announced at the end of 2022, now it has been further delayed until "Easter" 2023.

 

The feeling is that there will not only be a reduction in the current grant but that the future grant is in jeopody.

 

DEFRA have said they are pleased about the appointment of the new Fund Raising Director as that will lead C&RT to becoming 'self sufficient' and not relying on grants.

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Philip said:

I think some people are jumping the gun a bit here, there's no suggestion that funding will be completely cut even beyond the end of the current CRT grant. It's probably inevitable that license fees will gradually go up over the years, hopefully not hugely so. There are other ways to save money - replacing wooden lock gates with steel ones which can then last 50-60 years or more. We might have to sacrifice some 'traditional' features, but if it helps keep the canals open and in working order then it'll be no bad thing.

 

The countries finances are in a big mess.

 

If you set the UK waterways against the likes of the police, NHS and social care in terms of government priorities then they start to look very unimportant.

[George and Dragon]

5 minutes ago, M_JG said:

 

The countries finances are in a big mess.

 

If you set the UK waterways against the likes of the police, NHS and social care in terms of government priorities then they start to look very unimportant.

This is very true.

 

There has been a reluctance on the part of all governments over the past 45 years and possibly longer to think further ahead than the next general election and plan (and therefore spend) accordingly.

[Rob-M]

27 minutes ago, Philip said:

I think some people are jumping the gun a bit here, there's no suggestion that funding will be completely cut even beyond the end of the current CRT grant. It's probably inevitable that license fees will gradually go up over the years, hopefully not hugely so. There are other ways to save money - replacing wooden lock gates with steel ones which can then last 50-60 years or more. We might have to sacrifice some 'traditional' features, but if it helps keep the canals open and in working order then it'll be no bad thing.

Replacing gates with steel on listed structures would probably need expensive reviews to determine changing what is in the listed structure.

[Arthur Marshall]

1 hour ago, M_JG said:

 

The countries finances are in a big mess.

 

If you set the UK waterways against the likes of the police, NHS and social care in terms of government priorities then they start to look very unimportant.

If you think the NHS and Social Care feature anywhere in the government's priorities, except for privatisation and profit, you need to rethink!

[Guest]

Just now, Arthur Marshall said:

If you think the NHS and Social Care feature anywhere in the government's priorities, except for privatisation and profit, you need to rethink!

 

That's my point really.

 

Given that fact where do we think the waterways feature??

[Philip]

1 minute ago, M_JG said:

 

That's my point really.

 

Given that fact where do we think the waterways feature??

 

Many would say that the waterways are important for people's mental health (and physical health to a lesser extent), so it might be that the government sees this as a reason not to let them go into decline. 

[Momac]

1 hour ago, M_JG said:

 

If you set the UK waterways against the likes of the police, NHS and social care in terms of government priorities then they start to look very unimportant.

Yes very low priority .

 

Most people look at river and have no idea about its wider geography nor is there much concept that the ricer requires any maintenance. (Canals the same).

In other  words  folks think the waterways look after themselves or they give the matter no thought.

 

Boaters are not likely to be leaving C&RT anything in their wills. There is no way that public donations will ever fund C&RT.

 

So canal and river licenses must increase in price  by a factor of 10. But I suspect that will be unlikely to succeed in practice. 

 

 

[matty40s]

12 minutes ago, Philip said:

 

Many would say that the waterways are important for people's mental health (and physical health to a lesser extent), so it might be that the government sees this as a reason not to let them go into decline. 

You dont win a prize as you didnt put "wellbeing" in your sentence.

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, Philip said:

 

Many would say that the waterways are important for people's mental health (and physical health to a lesser extent), so it might be that the government sees this as a reason not to let them go into decline. 

 

I think that is why the Trust place a lot of emphasis on that aspect of their role as a charity. But given the state of NHS mental Health services in lots of areas I doubt such forward thinking comes into it.

[Momac]

4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I have found that a 'full service marina' on the coast is pretty much on the par with similar on the Inland waterways - some are a bit more expensive - particularly  along the south coast. When we left our Aquavista mooring at Newark our 'new' mooring at a North Wales coastal marina, was almost exactly the same cost.

 

At inland marinas there are 'additional on-costs' for a boat wider than 7 feet, as well as additional licence costs for wide beams.

Coastal marinas tend to be geared up for 12- 14-16 foot beam as standard

 

There are, however. considerable cost savings in that you do not need a licence (£1000 ? pa) or a BSS, so you can actually pay a consierable premium at a coastal marina and still be cost neutral.

Cant say I have looked into costs in any detail

 I don't pay for beam where I am now.

And I am reluctant to move since the boat is moored less than a mile from home, which is  good thing as far as I am concerned . Moving to the coast would involve travelling costs that could easily exceed any saving in river license and BSS.

The deciding factor would more likely be lack of ability to navigate .

 

[Mike Todd]

8 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

You misread the sentence :

 

CRT has begun another boat licence consultation, warning that boat licence fees – currently 11% of income – may need to rise by far more than the rate of inflation. 

 

C&RTs total income is £214.6 million

Income from boat LICENCES is £24 million (Source : C&RT published accounts 2021-22)

Boaters contribute quite a bit indirectly eg to the levy that CaRT make on marinas in respect of mooring fees.