Battery Types

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, blackrose said:

I use Trojan lead/acids. They're not much more expensive than a lot of lesser quality batteries on the market and they perform better than any sealed lead/acids. But they must be maintained.

And perhaps of more importance at first for many boaters, as you said, they need very regular monitoring. Even if it is just an informed glance at a decent voltmeter a few times a day.

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

And perhaps of more importance at first for many boaters, as you said, they need very regular monitoring. Even if it is just an informed glance at a decent voltmeter a few times a day.

 

I've never understood how people with Trojans equalise or desulphate them, or even charge them properly in full compliance with the manu data sheet. 

 

Voltages well over 15 are required IIRC, even just for the 'finishing' voltage at the end of a charge. Where do people get such voltages from? 

[Tony Brooks]

8 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I've never understood how people with Trojans equalise or desulphate them, or even charge them properly in full compliance with the manu data sheet. 

 

Voltages well over 15 are required IIRC, even just for the 'finishing' voltage at the end of a charge. Where do people get such voltages from? 

 

Expensive inverter-chargers, expensive chargers, a variable lab. power supply, and expensive solar controller and so on.

[frangar]

19 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I've never understood how people with Trojans equalise or desulphate them, or even charge them properly in full compliance with the manu data sheet. 

 

Voltages well over 15 are required IIRC, even just for the 'finishing' voltage at the end of a charge. Where do people get such voltages from? 

Select “equalise” from the victron app! Both my mains charger & solar controller have it. Can adjust the equalise voltage too. Best to disconnect all 12v loads tho as some aren’t keen on 15v+ 

[cuthound]

18 hours ago, roland elsdon said:

Replaced 5 year old battery in our car with required agm battery 3 years and 2 months ago, sudden catastrophic failure in Belgium.

Last week the super agm battery failed without warning. Car would start even though battery was showing 11.95 volts but would them fail to stop start and advise of various faults ( no brakes no steering no engine fault codes galore. )  Replaced the battery from Honda and interestingly they supplied a non  agm  one, covered in Honda branding.

Suspect agm means a gullible motorist.

 

 

The thing that usually kills AGM's (more correctly called valve regulated sealed lead acid batteries or recombination batteries) is heat, because this increases the internal gas pressure, which causes the regulating valve to lift and vent gas, leaving less to be recombined into the electrolyte.

 

Typically they have a 10 year life at up to 25°C (average annual ambient) which halves for every 5°C increase over that. Short temperature excursions over 35°C will also rapidly reduce lifespan. The underbonnet area of a car can often get quite hot for short periods of time, typically when you have switched the engine off after a motorway run.

Edited October 1, 2022 by cuthound
Clarification

[blackrose]

4 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Expensive inverter-chargers, expensive chargers, a variable lab. power supply, and expensive solar controller and so on.

 

A cheap variable lab power supply in my case. £50 from eBay.

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, blackrose said:

 

A cheap variable lab power supply in my case. £50 from eBay.

 

I know that we say never to run a charger from and inverter, but I suppose that is in effect what you do when away from shore power. I think the very low current plus the specific situation renders that advice not applicable.

[blackrose]

4 hours ago, MtB said:

 

I've never understood how people with Trojans equalise or desulphate them, or even charge them properly in full compliance with the manu data sheet. 

 

Voltages well over 15 are required IIRC, even just for the 'finishing' voltage at the end of a charge. Where do people get such voltages from? 

 

Is this a unique requirement for Trojans? I thought all open wet lead/acid batteries required occasional desulphation if you want to maintain them properly, regardless of the brand?

[blackrose]

1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I know that we say never to run a charger from and inverter, but I suppose that is in effect what you do when away from shore power. I think the very low current plus the specific situation renders that advice not applicable.

 

I only run the variable lab power supply from shore power. I suppose I could try it from the generator. I've never run it from the inverter. It may be possible as you suggest, but the idea of charging batteries from the same batteries through an inverter with the associated losses just doesn't seem right to me. I don't really understand how we could create more energy than the energy we used to create it?

[The Gravy Boater]

When I got my boat I also had three domestic batteries that the surveyor had pronounced dead... or moribund, at least.   One thing to remember about surveyors is that they have to come up with something to justify their fee and batteries are low hanging fruit.  As others have said... you only really know their condition when tested properly or over time.  Mine were fine for another six months but only really because I was charging across country and running the engine half the day... they were not retaining charge but it didn't affect me because I was otherwise occupied.

 

As for battery types... others will disagree but I really don't think the various species of mid range LA are worth the money.  You are better off spending that premium on larger bog standard LA and solar to maintain it.  At the end of the day if it ain't lithium you are still dealing with the same limitations of lead acid to some degree.  As was mentioned the physical space available for batteries is a major factor.  I had three 110ah batteries in suspiciously large steel trays that an engineer mentioned were 'truck battery sized'... I eventually replaced these with three 180ah LA that fitted them perfectly and that they were clearly intended for.  A decent solar array takes away most of the anxiety of maintaining LA.

 

As for lithium... if you simply don't need it, no reason to get it, but if your decision was cost related it is no longer necessary to pay someone to do a murderously expensive lithium boat install. If you're not an electrician it is more sensible nowadays to get a Portable Power Station such as those offered by Bluetti, Jackery et al... they are relatively cheap due to the size of the offgrid market, portable (you can take it with you, including if you change boats) and you can plug a variety of panels into them depending on the spec.  The warranty on mine is now four years and if it hasn't broke by then it's rated to have 80% capacity 10 years from now.

 

I run both battery types.  But you pays your money and makes your choice.

 

[cuthound]

6 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

Is this a unique requirement for Trojans? I thought all open wet lead/acid batteries required occasional desulphation if you want to maintain them properly, regardless of the brand?

 

When BT used open wet batteries which were kept on float between charges,  they had a "refresher charge" of 4 hours every 4 weeks and a 12 hour charge which finished with an equalising charge every 12 weeks.

They also.had a "conditioning cycle" every 2 years, wher they were completely discharged over a 10 hour period to.assess capacity before immediately being fully recharged.

 

Typically they lasted 25-30 years, but they were top quality batteries.

 

Below is an image of some of the smaller 400Ah cells, the largest were 15,050Ah.

Edited October 1, 2022 by cuthound
To add the last paragraph and photo

[Tony1]

On 29/09/2022 at 18:50, Tracy D'arth said:

Until you learn how to look after them, buy the cheapest you can find because it is likely that they will get abused and not charged properly which will lead to a short life even for the best and most expensive.

 

Like many novice boaters, I can absolutely confirm Tracy's advice, from sad experience.

I knew nothing of how to maintain batteries, and I had no idea how important it was that I should know about them.

The result was that my first set of batteries were pretty much knackered within 2 weeks of me getting the boat. 

(I'm assuming its your first boat, so if that's wrong, please forgive me for stating the obvious etc.)

If you do buy expensive ones, I would make a real effort to learn as much as possible about looking after them, before you start using them. 

 

[MtB]

2 hours ago, Tony1 said:

 

Like many novice boaters, I can absolutely confirm Tracy's advice, from sad experience.

I knew nothing of how to maintain batteries, and I had no idea how important it was that I should know about them.

The result was that my first set of batteries were pretty much knackered within 2 weeks of me getting the boat. 

(I'm assuming its your first boat, so if that's wrong, please forgive me for stating the obvious etc.)

If you do buy expensive ones, I would make a real effort to learn as much as possible about looking after them, before you start using them. 

 

 

 

Seconded. I ran into this same problem too. Only in my case I followed the advice in your last sentence and still knackered my expensive new set of batteries.

 

I'd read all the advice and bought the instrument for monitoring them everyone here raved about but it turned out to be wrongly calibrated from the factory. So the voltages it was displaying were not the true battery voltages, which I discovered when I used a correctly calibrated Volt meter to try to find out why they have died. 

 

Point being, it remains astonishingly easy to wreck a set of batteries, whether they be el cheapos or el expensiveos. 

 

 

[LadyG]

19 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Expensive inverter-chargers, expensive chargers, a variable lab. power supply, and expensive solar controller and so on.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

5 hours ago, LadyG said:

 

 

 

I think you may have forgotten to post something.

[MtB]

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

I think you may have forgotten to post something.

 

 

 

Oh I dunno, I think that is one of her best posts ever...

 

 

 

 

(Only teasing, LadyG!!) 

 

 

[StephenA]

On 01/10/2022 at 08:43, Tony Brooks said:

 

Expensive inverter-chargers, expensive chargers, a variable lab. power supply, and expensive solar controller and so on.

 

And I've always wondered what the ROI on a set up like that is ...

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, StephenA said:

 

And I've always wondered what the ROI on a set up like that is ...

 

Massive, given it saves a CMer from running their engine to generate their leccy. There were figures on here some while back IIRC showing it costs about £5 per kWh to generate your leccy with engine, and £0 per kWh with solar. 

[StephenA]

3 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Massive, given it saves a CMer from running their engine to generate their leccy. There were figures on here some while back IIRC showing it costs about £5 per kWh to generate your leccy with engine, and £0 per kWh with solar. 

 

Its not so much the solar (though the cost of 0 per hour for generation does need a serious outlay in the first place) , its the top end batteries, expensive chargers/controllers - compared to cheaper batteries / chargers.

Edited October 2, 2022 by StephenA

[Tony Brooks]

9 minutes ago, StephenA said:

 

Its not so much the solar (though the cost of 0 per hour for generation does need a serious outlay in the first place) , its the top end batteries, expensive chargers/controllers - compared to cheaper batteries / chargers.

 

My thoughts exactly. I am sure solar pays for itself within a few years and makes mooring far more pleasant with no engine running, but once we get into top end solar controllers, chargers and inverters that allow custom charging programmes I have my doubts. I got by for years with just a voltmeter and ammeter to monitor the battery and my last set of mid-range lead calcium batteries lasted six years and were still going when we sold the boat. That was with just standard engine charging and a cheapish solar controller.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

My thoughts exactly. I am sure solar pays for itself within a few years and makes mooring far more pleasant with no engine running, but once we get into top end solar controllers, chargers and inverters that allow custom charging programmes I have my doubts. I got by for years with just a voltmeter and ammeter to monitor the battery and my last set of mid-range lead calcium batteries lasted six years and were still going when we sold the boat. That was with just standard engine charging and a cheapish solar controller.

 

I think that sums it up completely.

 

If you are prepared to learn about batteries, put the effort into 'maintenance' & keeping them above 50% SoC, regularly 'top them up' and the occasional equalisation charge, they will last for years.

 

However many boaters now seem to be more of the 'instant gratification' generation who want to just 'plug & play' and not have to learn about things and do maintenance - thats fine, but you either invest in the correct equipment to do the job for you, or, you replace your batteries (maybe) annually.

[Tony Brooks]

Unfortunately I think the marketing departments of the charging add-ons all too often give the impression that their bit of kit will solve all a boater's charging problems when what it probably will do is cover a fault up that could be rectified at a much lower cost and with fewer complications.

[cuthound]

59 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Unfortunately I think the marketing departments of the charging add-ons all too often give the impression that their bit of kit will solve all a boater's charging problems when what it probably will do is cover a fault up that could be rectified at a much lower cost and with fewer complications.

 

I agree. Some of the additional features are snake oil, like the desulphation pulse mode.

Edited October 2, 2022 by cuthound
To add a missing space.

[George and Dragon]

On 01/10/2022 at 12:03, cuthound said:

The thing that usually kills AGM's (more correctly called valve regulated sealed lead acid batteries or recombination batteries) is heat, because this increases the internal gas pressure, which causes the regulating valve to lift and vent gas, leaving less to be recombined into the electrolyte.

 

Typically they have a 10 year life at up to 25°C (average annual ambient) which halves for every 5°C increase over that. Short temperature excursions over 35°C will also rapidly reduce lifespan. The underbonnet area of a car can often get quite hot for short periods of time, typically when you have switched the engine off after a motorway run.

 

Perhaps this is why the 1 series BMWs have the battery under the boot floor. Kept in a garage ours is now coming up to 13 years old. Stop-start hasn't worked for a while though it did for about a week after lockdown 1 since the car was on a trickle charger for some considerable time. 

Quite honestly the car doesn't really get used enough to justify keeping it (only 1200 miles between the last 2 MOTs) but the hassle of hiring one when we do actually need both vehicles at the same time means it's staying for a while longer.

[SandyD]

OK, a bit of an update.

 

We now have the boat and every indication is the batterys are shot ( I have found cheap replacements at £90 a pop) but I have just connected the shoreline and I have turned the inverter/charger off so that I don't charge the batteries which will be replaced tommorow However everything 12v works but if the inverter is off the 240v devices don't work(TV etc.) what am I missing? Pictures of our electrical system below