Lithium hybrid set up help required

[gbclive]

4 hours ago, rusty69 said:

That's interesting. I can't see that information on their website. Do you need to ask them directly? 

 

Also you say "if you change them". Is it possible for the user to change the settings on the fogstar and lifebatteries BMS or is it a password protected option only available to the seller? 

OK, a little more digging and a little more info.

This YouTube video at 8min 25sec mentions the voiding note that comes up when opening the FrogStar app.

However, I did find a post in the “12 volt boating group” forum on Facebook, that suggested Frogstar might give the OK if the installation sparky contacts them before hand to explain the proposed settings and the reason for.

There is no doubt that Frogstar are aggressively undercutting the UK market, but they have only recently expanded the range to include LiFePO4 Leisure Batteries. Life Batteries have an establish record of supporting Hybrid installations.

So… I think that before buying from FrogStar, it would be best to contact them by email for their current position and file the reply as a record.

My instinct is to use Life Batteries, but FrogStar are considerably cheaper, so I’ll keep an open mind.

 

 

[rusty69]

4 minutes ago, gbclive said:

OK, a little more digging and a little more info.

This YouTube video at 8min 25sec mentions the voiding note that comes up when opening the FrogStar app.

However, I did find a post in the “12 volt boating group” forum on Facebook, that suggested Frogstar might give the OK if the installation sparky contacts them before hand to explain the proposed settings and the reason for.

There is no doubt that Frogstar are aggressively undercutting the UK market, but they have only recently expanded the range to include LiFePO4 Leisure Batteries. Life Batteries have an establish record of supporting Hybrid installations.

So… I think that before buying from FrogStar, it would be best to contact them by email for their current position and file the reply as a record.

My instinct is to use Life Batteries, but FrogStar are considerably cheaper, so I’ll keep an open mind.

 

 

 

 

Ok, thanks. I have sent fogstar an e-mail to confirm what their policy is.

Edited December 11, 2022 by rusty69

[Guest]

Just out of interest has anyone checked their insurers are happy with a hybrid set-up? 
 

I’ve heard of two recent examples where insurers were not. One was a dry dock in in the south where the boatyard insurer’s would not permit a vessel on the premises as it was had an improvised / unproved lithium set-up. The second was a retrospective installation by the owner, where the insurers asked for a written report on the lithium installation he had reported to them, which he wanted adequately covering on the policy. As there was no British Standard or other available formal guidance that covers it, nobody could do a report, and the insurance was refused. 
 

So what do all your insurers say when you tell them about the mods you complete?

[ditchcrawler]

8 minutes ago, watchfuleye said:

Just out of interest has anyone checked their insurers are happy with a hybrid set-up? 
 

I’ve heard of two recent examples where insurers were not. One was a dry dock in in the south where the boatyard insurer’s would not permit a vessel on the premises as it was had an improvised / unproved lithium set-up. The second was a retrospective installation by the owner, where the insurers asked for a written report on the lithium installation he had reported to them, which he wanted adequately covering on the policy. As there was no British Standard or other available formal guidance that covers it, nobody could do a report, and the insurance was refused. 
 

So what do all your insurers say when you tell them about the mods you complete?

I doubt there is a company out there who knows the difference in Lithium types of batteries, just like Asbestos, one name covers all.

[Guest]

Yes, probably right. Even more reason to see what insurers will cover and not cover. 

[Bigtwin]

11 hours ago, rusty69 said:

Also you say "if you change them". Is it possible for the user to change the settings on the fogstar and lifebatteries BMS or is it a password protected option only available to the seller? 

 

The user can change the settings on the batteries from Life Batteries.

[IanD]

8 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

I doubt there is a company out there who knows the difference in Lithium types of batteries, just like Asbestos, one name covers all.

I don't think that's true; marine insurance companies who cover lumpy water boats certainly know the difference, see the posts on the marine-how-to website, the author was involved with defining industry policy on this.

[magnetman]

On 11/12/2022 at 13:42, watchfuleye said:

Just out of interest has anyone checked their insurers are happy with a hybrid set-up? 
 

I’ve heard of two recent examples where insurers were not. One was a dry dock in in the south where the boatyard insurer’s would not permit a vessel on the premises as it was had an improvised / unproved lithium set-up.

This is interesting. How did the boatyard know what was on the boat? Did they just ask the owner or attempt to gain entry into the internal spaces?

 

I don't think I would be all that happy with someone else (other than family members and the bs man) gaining entry to the internal spaces of my boats.

 

if the boat was in for dry docking I don't really understand how the yard would have become aware of what type of batteries were on the boat unless the owner told them.

 

In which case surely it is better just not to mention it. The boat isn't going to blow up because of having some lithium batteries on board.

 

Perhaps they have a disclaimer where you tick a box saying "no lithium batteries" and the owner in this case didn't tick the box.

 

It does sound a little bit like one of those stories one hears of.

 

 

Edited December 12, 2022 by magnetman
edit to remove racist sex references

[IanD]

50 minutes ago, magnetman said:

This is interesting. How did the boatyard know what was on the boat? Did they just ask the owner or attempt to gain entry into the internal spaces?

 

I don't think I would be all that happy with someone else (other than family members and the bs man) gaining entry to the internal spaces of my boats.

 

if the boat was in for dry docking I don't really understand how the yard would have become aware of what type of batteries were on the boat unless the owner told them.

 

In which case surely it is better just not to mention it. The boat isn't going to blow up because of having some lithium batteries on board.

 

Perhaps they have a disclaimer where you tick a box saying "no lithium batteries" and the owner in this case didn't tick the box.

 

It does sound a little bit like one of those stories one hears of.

 

 

 

If you install anything on your boat which is non-standard and destroys it -- petrol generator, lithium-ion (NMC not LFP) batteries, jet engine, small modular reactor -- then any insurance company is likely to refuse to pay out, just like they do with cars if you drop a Ferrari V12 into your Corsa and then trash it. Not telling them or saying "your policy didn't specifically ban this" won't get you out of this, if it came to court they'll just say "you made a dangerous modification and didn't tell us" and almost certainly win the case.

 

Marine insurance companies are becoming well aware of lithium batteries and especially the difference between LFP and the more inflammable chemistries like NMC, and though this knowledge may not have percolated through to UK narrowboat insurers yet -- or their policies -- it certainly will. Common restrictions include "no NMC or similar type" at all (LFP only), or "only professionally installed and certificated", or "loss cover limited to $/£xxxxx". These restrictions are becoming common in yacht/cruiser policies, and are being adopted by the insurance industry bodies like ABYC and the EU (and presumably UK) equivalent.

 

https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/news/diy-lithium-ion-battery-installation-could-leave-you-uninsured-88016

 

"Pantaenius UK managing director Mike Wimbridge says the firm doesn’t have ‘an anti-lithium policy’, but boat owners should inform their insurance company if they change anything fundamental on the boat as it may affect their policy."

"YM expert Duncan Kent, who has researched lithium-ion batteries, said there are many different types, some of which are inherently dangerous if misused or incorrectly installed.

He said lithium-iron-phosphate (LiFePO4) cells are considered much safer than lithium-cobalt cells often found in electric vehicles, as tests by fire authorities have found they are ‘almost impossible to set fire to’, even when drilled through or shorted out.

‘My advice is, if you’re planning to upgrade to a Li-ion battery bank, ignore the ‘drop in replacement’ sales promises and at least get some advice from a professional marine electrician who knows all about Lithium-ion cells and their specific charging requirements. Better still, get them to design the system for you. That way you can inform your insurance company that it is a professionally designed power system, which hopefully should ease their minds,’ he added.

 

So LFP batteries are likely to be fine either from the risk or the insurance point of view, but more because they're probably safer than lead-acid than because not telling an insurer means you can ignore the problem. IIRC people who have installed LFPs and told their insurer (Peter?) have had no problem so far, but this isn't guaranteed with every insurer or indeed to continue in the future as they become more common -- though it should really continue to be OK for LFP, see below...

 

It seems there are *no* recorded cases of LFP battery fires on boats, every case mentioning "lithium battery fire" turned out to be NMC or similar -- see here:

 

https://marinehowto.com/li-ion-be-careful-what-you-read-believe/

Edited December 12, 2022 by IanD

[rusty69]

46 minutes ago, magnetman said:

This is interesting. How did the boatyard know what was on the boat? Did they just ask the owner or attempt to gain entry into the internal spaces?

Maybe the owner mentioned they had LTO batteries on an internet forum.😂

[IanD]

1 minute ago, rusty69 said:

Maybe the owner mentioned they had LTO batteries on an internet forum.😂

LTO (like LFP) would probably be fine, they probably just heard "lithium"...

[Mike Todd]

50 minutes ago, magnetman said:

This is interesting. How did the boatyard know what was on the boat? Did they just ask the owner or attempt to gain entry into the internal spaces?

 

I don't think I would be all that happy with someone else (other than family members and the bs man) gaining entry to the internal spaces of my boats.

 

if the boat was in for dry docking I don't really understand how the yard would have become aware of what type of batteries were on the boat unless the owner told them.

 

In which case surely it is better just not to mention it. The boat isn't going to blow up because of having some lithium batteries on board.

 

Perhaps they have a disclaimer where you tick a box saying "no lithium batteries" and the owner in this case didn't tick the box.

 

It does sound a little bit like one of those stories one hears of.

 

 

If you replace your LA batteries yourself, does that also invalidate insurance??

[IanD]

21 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

If you replace your LA batteries yourself, does that also invalidate insurance??

No, because they're a) similar b) standard equipment for many years that insurers are comfortable with.

 

Lithium batteries on boats are relatively new, there are many cases of "lithium battery fires" (always NMC not LFP!) in many applications (cars, e-scooters, phones, laptops, planes, boats...) and insurers are wary of them.

 

LFPs on a boat *should* be fine and anyway probably won't meet with any objection from an insurer if they're specifically told they are LFPs -- so why not do it? Or you could take the view that if they're safe then why bother telling them, but insurers are famously good at trying to wriggle out of claims so I'm not convinced this is worth the risk. Others may of course disagree... 😉

Edited December 12, 2022 by IanD

[gbclive]

2 hours ago, magnetman said:

This is interesting. How did the boatyard know what was on the boat? Did they just ask the owner or attempt to gain entry into the internal spaces?

 

I don't think I would be all that happy with someone else (other than family members and the bs man) gaining entry to the internal spaces of my boats.

 

if the boat was in for dry docking I don't really understand how the yard would have become aware of what type of batteries were on the boat unless the owner told them.

 

In which case surely it is better just not to mention it. The boat isn't going to blow up because of having some lithium batteries on board.

 

Perhaps they have a disclaimer where you tick a box saying "no lithium batteries" and the owner in this case didn't tick the box.

 

It does sound a little bit like one of those stories one hears of.

 

 

“A friend 😏” asked Knox-Johnson specifically about LiFeO4 chemistry batteries. The underwriters confirmed no issue as long as it was professionally installed. I suspect some / most so called professional installers would be unwilling to get involved with a hybrid system unless a B to B charger was installed between the LA and the lithium. This of course adds significantly to the cost and complexity of the install. Note that the policy docs do not specifically mention battery chemistry.

[ditchcrawler]

Leaving the lap top running on the sofa is probably a much bigger risk

[nicknorman]

2 hours ago, IanD said:

 

If you install anything on your boat which is non-standard and destroys it -- petrol generator, lithium-ion (NMC not LFP) batteries, jet engine, small modular reactor -- then any insurance company is likely to refuse to pay out, just like they do with cars if you drop a Ferrari V12 into your Corsa and then trash it. Not telling them or saying "your policy didn't specifically ban this" won't get you out of this, if it came to court they'll just say "you made a dangerous modification and didn't tell us" and almost certainly win the case.

This is just wanton scaremongering. Cars are built to very specific standards and every car insurance policy proposal requires you to state whether any modifications have been made. Canal boats are made to random specifications, maybe by a builder who has built 100s, maybe by a builder who has a built a few. Maybe by an owner-installer who has built it themselves to god know what standards. Canal boat policies don’t ask if the boat has been modified because the original design is not well defined. Or defined at all! Insurance policies can’t decline to pay out just because they say “ we didn’t ask you this question or even hint at it, but nevertheless we are going to invoke this unpublished clause and refuse”. Wouldn’t stand a chance. Canal boat insurance policies require the likes of a BSS and maybe a survey, and if that is satisfactory then the boat is insured regardless of the tiny details of its electrical or other installations provided it is maintained in a “seaworthy” condition.

Edited December 12, 2022 by nicknorman

[IanD]

10 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

This is just wanton scaremongering. Cars are built to very specific standards and every car insurance policy proposal requires you to state whether any modifications have been made. Canal boats are made to random specifications, maybe by a builder who has built 100s, maybe by a builder who has a built a few. Maybe by an owner-installer who has built it themselves to god know what standards. Canal boat policies don’t ask if the boat has been modified because the original design is not well defined. Or defined at all! Insurance policies can’t decline to pay out just because they say “ we didn’t ask you this question or even hint at it, but nevertheless we are going to invoke this unpublished clause and refuse”. Wouldn’t stand a chance. Canal boat insurance policies require the likes of a BSS and maybe a survey, and if that is satisfactory then the boat is insured regardless of the tiny details of its electrical or other installations.

 

So let's just ignore what the insurance companies are saying about lithium batteries, shall we? Including the one above who *when specifically asked* said "so long as it's a professional installation that's fine"? Or the others quoted who said similar or even more restrictive things?

 

It's not a problem for me, I'll be telling them. If you or anybody else doesn't want to or call it scaremongering, feel free, that's entirely your choice. And maybe that'll be fine, or maybe it won't -- honestly I don't care, it's your boat not mine, stick your head in the sand and ignore all this if you want to.

 

But if it all goes pear-shaped -- for you or anybody else -- don't go crying "But nobody warned me!" 🙂

 

BTW did you tell your insurers, and if so what did they say? Or do you not want to answer that question on a public forum... 😉

Edited December 12, 2022 by IanD

[nicknorman]

2 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

So let's just ignore what the insurance companies are saying about lithium batteries, shall we? Including the ones who *when specifically asked* said "so long as it's a professional installation that's fine"?

 

It's not a problem for me, I'll be telling them. If you or anybody else doesn't want to or call it scaremongering, feel free, that's entirely your choice. And maybe that'll be fine, or maybe it won't -- honestly I don't care, it's your boat not mine.

 

But if it all goes pear-shaped don't go crying "But nobody warned me!" 🙂

Just to continue my repost to you, if our boat originally had a Beta 38 installed and I decided to install a Beta 43 without telling the insurance Co (who don’t know what engine was installed in the first place) you are saying that it would become uninsured unless I told them. That is simply not true.

If my insurance company asks me about the type of batteries installed or other such hints that they want to know, I will tell them. But so far they haven’t. What yachty insurance companies may have been reputed to have said (third hand) is not relevant. It is what they have said to me that is relevant.

[nicknorman]

Oh and while I’m ranting, apparently Li installations are ok if they are done by a “professional” - being someone who gets paid to work on one’s boat, not necessarily someone who has the slightest idea what they are doing. I certainly wouldn’t let a “professional” loose on my boat unless I was sure they knew what they were doing. So far I have only encountered 2 “professionals” in relation to our boat (other than the builder). One was very knowledgeable, one was a complete idiot. It is ludicrous to imply that an unqualified “professional” is somehow a magic bullet of good practice and competence. Or even a “qualified” one.

[magnetman]

Another point is that the insurance in the post I quoted was the dry dock operators' insurance not the boat owner's insurance.

 

i was just intrigued that a dry dock would refuse entry to someone based on what batteries they had on their boat.

[IanD]

14 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Just to continue my repost to you, if our boat originally had a Beta 38 installed and I decided to install a Beta 43 without telling the insurance Co (who don’t know what engine was installed in the first place) you are saying that it would become uninsured unless I told them. That is simply not true.

If my insurance company asks me about the type of batteries installed or other such hints that they want to know, I will tell them. But so far they haven’t. What yachty insurance companies may have been reputed to have said (third hand) is not relevant. It is what they have said to me that is relevant.

 

Yet again you're putting words into my mouth that I clearly didn't say... 😞

 

The issue is not if you replace something with something else similar -- for example, a different diesel engine, or a different sized LA battery -- because that clearly does not change the risk to the boat or insurer.

 

The issue is if you put in something different which has different -- and possibly worse, or different, or unexpected -- risks, which is what I was trying to say but you seem to determined to twist. "Lithium" batteries in general certainly fall into this category, which is why some insurers take the position they do -- even though pretty much all the risk is with NMC-type cells, not LFP, so the problem is partly insurer education (or lack of it).

 

If yours haven't asked you then it's up to you to decide whether to tell them.

 

P.S. The "yachty insurance companies" position is clear and has been stated in by them in public, and confirmed by many people who have come up against this problem -- maybe not in the narrow-boaty world, but certainly elsewhere in the real world. Whether this has reached narrowboat insurers yet is an interesting question... 😉

 

 

Edited December 12, 2022 by IanD

[magnetman]

2 hours ago, rusty69 said:

Maybe the owner mentioned they had LTO batteries on an internet forum.😂

As it happens LTO are the safest lithium chemistry about. Even safer than LFP. They are basically stable and don't cause problems.

[IanD]

1 minute ago, magnetman said:

Another point is that the insurance in the post I quoted was the dry dock operators' insurance not the boat owner's insurance.

 

i was just intrigued that a dry dock would refuse entry to someone based on what batteries they had on their boat.

It's probably based on the usual misunderstanding of "OMG lithium battery fires!!!", and an insurer who is aware of these (many fields) but not of the differences between NMC and LFP taking the attitude "You're not bringing a boat with a lithium bomb on board into the boatyard we insure". Doesn't make sense, but if that's what the insurer says then the boatyard has little choice other than to do what they say or risk having their cover invalidated.

[rusty69]

3 minutes ago, magnetman said:

As it happens LTO are the safest lithium chemistry about. Even safer than LFP. They are basically stable and don't cause problems.

Yeah. I just watched one of them you tube videos where they did horrible things to them alongside Lifepo4s. They behaved very well. 

 

I asked my insurance company about LiFePo4 before installing them. 

[magnetman]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

It's probably based on the usual misunderstanding of "OMG lithium battery fires!!!", and an insurer who is aware of these (many fields) but not of the differences between NMC and LFP taking the attitude "You're not bringing a boat with a lithium bomb on board into the boatyard we insure". Doesn't make sense, but if that's what the insurer says then the boatyard has little choice other than to do what they say or risk having their cover invalidated.

 

Its still interesting to know how they find out about the batteries. Maybe it is just a tick box. Moist people are honest so I suppose they would admit to having Lithium batteries rather than hide the fact. The boatyard could find itself getting very little business over time as more and more people switch to Lithium batteries.