Jump to content

Narrowboat training on a trad stern with speed controls.


Felshampo

Featured Posts

23 minutes ago, blackrose said:

the pedantic and petty side arguments about who manufactured a JD3.

There was no argument, just information and correction, which are not pedantic.

If someone told you that the Minor was built by Austin, surely you would put them tight?

Edited by Athy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

44 minutes ago, dmr said:

Do the course on the trainers boat with a morse single lever control and likely a cruiser stern. 99% of what you learn will also apply to your boat and some experience of handling a different boat will be a very good thing.

Many single lever boaters are rather scathing of, or intimidated by, trad controls. By trying both you will soon find that trad controls are actually much nicer to use and with a little practice give you much finer control over the boat.

If your engine is a JD3/BD3 it will not have the Huge flywheel of a vintage job so the handling with trad controls is really easy. Just a shame they don't sound quite as good as a proper a vintage jobby.

 

I've never used rod/wheel controls either but so many times I wish I had that fine control over the throttle, there always seems to be a lot of to-ing and fro-ing with morse levers.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Athy said:

There was no argument, just information and correction, which are not pedantic.

If someone told you that the Minor was built by Austin, surely you would put them tight?

 

Most Minors were built by BMC, though badged as a Morris there's was an "Austin Minor" van.

 

This is guaranteed to start a long argument...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

 

I've never used rod/wheel controls either but so many times I wish I had that fine control over the throttle, there always seems to be a lot of to-ing and fro-ing with morse levers.  

 

They are really nice for a very slow gentle winding, set the revs to just above tickover and do every thing on the gear lever.   

With a JD3 and a PRM box you can do forward to reverse at full revs in a real emergency but its not a good thing to do. Another big plus is that the controls are right where you need them, no leaning over and stretching to handle the morse control and tiller at the same time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Athy said:

There was no argument, just information and correction, which are not pedantic.

If someone told you that the Minor was built by Austin, surely you would put them tight?

 

It certainly sounded like a side-argument to me which had nothing to with the original question. 

 

You're perfectly free to indulge yourself in that sort of pedantry of course, as I am to have an opinion.

Edited by blackrose
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Athy said:

Doesn't it help to have three hands?

(I've never used this type of control).

 

5 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

No, because you use the same hand to wind down as change gear, one after the other.  

 

Anyone who drives a car with a manual gearbox is used to the sequence of depress clutch pedal - change gear - let clutch pedal rise. Rod and wheel (or wheel and wheel on a GU boat) controls are really no different: wind speed down to tick over - use gear rod (or wheel) to change from forward gear to reverse gear (or vice versa) - wind speed wheel up to cruising revs.

 

What you mustn't do is push the reversing rod straight from forward to reverse (or vv) without reducing the revs first, in exactly the same way as you shouldn't bang a Morse lever straight from forward to reverse without letting the revs drop as the lever passes through the neutral position.

6 hours ago, Felshampo said:

We are happy to travel to them anywhere on the system. 

If you are happy to take your boat to the furthest flung part of the system, by the time you get there you will have enough experience of using your trad controls not to need any training.

  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

 

Anyone who drives a car with a manual gearbox is used to the sequence of depress clutch pedal - change gear - let clutch pedal rise. Rod and wheel (or wheel and wheel on a GU boat) controls are really no different: wind speed down to tick over - use gear rod (or wheel) to change from forward gear to reverse gear (or vice versa) - wind speed wheel up to cruising revs.

 

What you mustn't do is push the reversing rod straight from forward to reverse (or vv) without reducing the revs first, in exactly the same way as you shouldn't bang a Morse lever straight from forward to reverse without letting the revs drop as the lever passes through the neutral position.

If you are happy to take your boat to the furthest flung part of the system, by the time you get there you will have enough experience of using your trad controls not to need any training.

 

Some of us started boating with  outboards that had separate controls ie a gear selector and throttle control.  I don't remember it being particularly difficult in fact as you say most of us drive (manual) cars so it's the same principle.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Neil2 said:

 

Some of us started boating with  outboards that had separate controls ie a gear selector and throttle control.  I don't remember it being particularly difficult in fact as you say most of us drive (manual) cars so it's the same principle.   

More akin to the Daf Variomatic where the gear lever was either in neutral, reverse or foreward and you pressed the throttle

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, dmr said:

Do the course on the trainers boat with a morse single lever control and likely a cruiser stern. 99% of what you learn will also apply to your boat and some experience of handling a different boat will be a very good thing.

Many single lever boaters are rather scathing of, or intimidated by, trad controls. By trying both you will soon find that trad controls are actually much nicer to use and with a little practice give you much finer control over the boat.

If your engine is a JD3/BD3 it will not have the Huge flywheel of a vintage job so the handling with trad controls is really easy. Just a shame they don't sound quite as good as a proper a vintage jobby.

 

I agree that trad controls are more sensitive especially with a large prop. Getting used to the prop effect allows you to control mooring and entering locks but it doesn't always work. Also the ability to go quickly into reverse with a hydraulic gearbox can be a great help in an emergency. 

I am sure we would learn a lot of other things from using a trainers boat. 

However I need the trainer to use our boat to give my OH the confidence to steer our boat on her own. 

We have a Gardner 2LW by the way and I love how it sounds, sorry. 

4 hours ago, dmr said:

 

They are really nice for a very slow gentle winding, set the revs to just above tickover and do every thing on the gear lever.   

With a JD3 and a PRM box you can do forward to reverse at full revs in a real emergency but its not a good thing to do. Another big plus is that the controls are right where you need them, no leaning over and stretching to handle the morse control and tiller at the same time.

So true, especially the emergency stop, don't ask me how I know that....... 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, David Mack said:

 

If you are happy to take your boat to the furthest flung part of the system, by the time you get there you will have enough experience of using your trad controls not to need any training.

We have had the boat for three years and have lived on it for most of that time, experience is not what I'm after. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Felshampo said:

We have had the boat for three years and have lived on it for most of that time, experience is not what I'm after. 

If you haven't learnt how to use your controls in 3 years boating, why do you think a day or two with a trainer will make a difference?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, David Mack said:

If you haven't learnt how to use your controls in 3 years boating, why do you think a day or two with a trainer will make a difference?

 I've been using trad controls for a lot longer than three years. I think you have misunderstood my post. 

 

 

 

Thanks for all the replies. 

I think it went off topic from the start which always seems to happen. 

 

If anyone knows of an instructor who can use trad controls then please dm me. 

 

Edited by Felshampo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Our boat has a morse control. I also steer a boat with a push/pull throttle and a rod gear change. I have also steered a boat with a speed wheel and a rod gear change, and one with a speed wheel and a gear wheel. From the discussions above it seems I shouldn’t have been able to have used more than one type in my life without my head exploding.

 

It really isn’t difficult to get to grips with the idiosyncrasies of each type and as long as you take each as they are and relax, everything is fine.

  • Greenie 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Felshampo said:

 I've been using trad controls for a lot longer than three years. I think you have misunderstood my post. 

 

The RYA Helmsman training covers the basic principles. eg how to throw a rope, tie a boat up, go through  a lock, check the oil etc. Steering/handling a boat and man overboard  . It is quite basic.  The way trainers work you may as  well do it with your OH on your own boat  .  I did the helmsman course  before I bought a boat .

I learned how to handle a boat only by later experience with my own boat.

What do you hope to learn? You already seem to have that experience ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, MartynG said:

 

The RYA Helmsman training covers the basic principles. eg how to throw a rope, tie a boat up, go through  a lock, check the oil etc. Steering/handling a boat and man overboard  . It is quite basic.  The way trainers work you may as  well do it with your OH on your own boat  .  I did the helmsman course  before I bought a boat .

I learned how to handle a boat only by later experience with my own boat.

What do you hope to learn? You already seem to have that experience ?

I want the qualification for the insurance but we mainly want the training to give my OH more confidence. 

9 hours ago, IanM said:

Our boat has a morse control. I also steer a boat with a push/pull throttle and a rod gear change. I have also steered a boat with a speed wheel and a rod gear change, and one with a speed wheel and a gear wheel. From the discussions above it seems I shouldn’t have been able to have used more than one type in my life without my head exploding.

 

It really isn’t difficult to get to grips with the idiosyncrasies of each type and as long as you take each as they are and relax, everything is fine.

Try telling that to my OH! 

Edited by Felshampo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Felshampo said:

I want the qualification for the insurance but we mainly want the training to give my OH more confidence. 

Try telling that to my OH! 

 

One of the most difficult things in life is to try to teach your OH, particularly some practical skill. Something meant as useful comment very easily becomes criticism in the other's mind and before you know it all sorts of old niggles and grievancies come bubbling to the fore (or so I'm told   🙄)

 

Tam

  • Greenie 1
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Tam & Di said:

 

One of the most difficult things in life is to try to teach your OH, particularly some practical skill. Something meant as useful comment very easily becomes criticism in the other's mind and before you know it all sorts of old niggles and grievancies come bubbling to the fore (or so I'm told   🙄)

 

Tam

This reminds me of the time, when I was a boy, that Dad tried to teach Mum to drive. You could guarantee that within five minutes of setting off from home he would become stentorian and launch accusations of low mental capacity and of bovinity, and she would become shrill. After she burst into tears and came within an ace of driving our Hillman Minx into a drystone wall, he gave up.

 

But we live in enlightened times and I'm sure that nothing similar would happen these days.:D

Edited by Athy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, IanM said:

Our boat has a morse control. I also steer a boat with a push/pull throttle and a rod gear change. I have also steered a boat with a speed wheel and a rod gear change, and one with a speed wheel and a gear wheel. From the discussions above it seems I shouldn’t have been able to have used more than one type in my life without my head exploding.

 

It really isn’t difficult to get to grips with the idiosyncrasies of each type and as long as you take each as they are and relax, everything is fine.

 

Indeed, my first two canalling experiences were on ex-working "camping" boats supplied by Union Canal Carriers of Braunston in the early 1970's.

 

Both had speed wheel and gear rod controls and I don't recall either myself or the other 20 odd mixed venture scouts I was with having any issues in using them.

 

Im sure the OP's wife will quickly pick up how to use them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, Tam & Di said:

 

One of the most difficult things in life is to try to teach your OH, particularly some practical skill. Something meant as useful comment very easily becomes criticism in the other's mind and before you know it all sorts of old niggles and grievancies come bubbling to the fore (or so I'm told   🙄)

 

Tam

 

It's one of those universal laws isn't it.  I don't know how many times my wife has told me I would have been a rubbish teacher because I don't explain things clearly and have no patience.  Oh, and I'm patronising as well..

 

 

 

 

  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Felshampo said:

I want the qualification for the insurance but we mainly want the training to give my OH more confidence. 

Try telling that to my OH! 

Could your OH's lack of confidence (but not ability) be due to your presence on the boat? Not intending to be sarcastic but its like teaching the kids to drive.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Athy said:

This reminds me of the time, when I was a boy, that Dad tried to teach Mum to drive. You could guarantee that within five minutes of setting off from home he would become stentorian and launch accusations of low mental capacity and of bovinity, and she would become shrill. After she burst into tears and came within an ace of driving our Hillman Minx into a drystone wall, he gave up.

 

But we live in enlightened times and I'm sure that nothing similar would happen these days.:D

That's sort of it. We don't end up with an argument more of a "your better at it than I am, you do it" 

I'm sure if I wasn't there and she had someone else to show her she would do far better. That was certainly the case when she came to an outdoor centre I worked at in a previous life. 

1 hour ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Could your OH's lack of confidence (but not ability) be due to your presence on the boat? Not intending to be sarcastic but its like teaching the kids to drive.

I think your right. 

Although funnily enough I did teach the kids to drive but they refused, point blank, to go out with their mum. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, Felshampo said:

Although funnily enough I did teach the kids to drive but they refused, point blank, to go out with their mum. 

 

In most normal families kids expect to be taught by their parents - it's part of their whole life, though even there the relationship they have with a father will be rather different to that with their mother. The relationship between husband and wife is very different and leads to the position I suggested - it leads to conversations like "It would rather better if you did it this way dear", answered by a tight lipped "You never did like my aunt Edith did you!"

 

Tam

  • Haha 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I remember back in the day teaching Starcoaster to steer. She was fine but didn't really believe it. As confidence was proving a problem I just got off the boat saying I'll go and get some fish and chips from the chippy we were passing, so she could just steer for a bit without feeling watched like a hawk. 

 

Honestly, I'd hardly been gone 30 seconds before my mobile rang, my boat stemmed stemmed itself up and was firmly aground, lol! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Tam & Di said:

 

In most normal families kids expect to be taught by their parents - it's part of their whole life, though even there the relationship they have with a father will be rather different to that with their mother. The relationship between husband and wife is very different and leads to the position I suggested - it leads to conversations like "It would rather better if you did it this way dear", answered by a tight lipped "You never did like my aunt Edith did you!"

 

Tam

 

In these situations my wife's most repeated accusation is "You really don't understand women do you?" 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.