Buyers Survey: who and how?

[Ex Brummie]

You have to trust your surveyor. Following him around and distracting can cause him to make mistakes. If you ask about the ancillary equipment, ha can list what he cannot test and advise you in his report. I've only ever met my surveyors on site before they start in case they want any familiarisation. I've then left them to it. 

As a boiler service engineer, I often have a 'charley' on my shoulder, who may ask if I mind him watching. My reply is that I don't because I have confidence in my ability to do the job and if he ( it's always HE) wants to ask questions then the time taken to answer them shouldn't add too much to the bill. It's amazing how they find something else to do.

[ditchcrawler]

Funny, if you look back through this forum I am sure you will find loads of posts advising you to attend the survey as you will learn a lot about the boat from the surveyor 

[Bigtwin]

51 minutes ago, Graham Davis said:

 

As someone involved in motor sport safety I can tell you that those waivers at karting venues have been proved useless numerous times, often very expensively. 

 

I always sign such waivers “Without Prejudice”.

 

Ian

[MrsM]

9 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Funny, if you look back through this forum I am sure you will find loads of posts advising you to attend the survey as you will learn a lot about the boat from the surveyor 

I would definitely advocate being there (ie at the yard) while the survey is taking place but I wouldn't necessarily expect to actually be on board with the surveyor due to Covid. Saying that our survey was in between lockdown 1 & 2 and we did go on board with our surveyor after he had finished his inspection to double-check a few things. 

[matty40s]

1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

Funny, if you look back through this forum I am sure you will find loads of posts advising you to attend the survey as you will learn a lot about the boat from the surveyor 

Yes attend, but not intrude when the vitals are going on....unless you want to be billed the extra hours it takes on top while you are asking questions and she/he is giving answers whilst patiently waiting to get their head inside the next cupboard or go back under the baseplate for the next couple of readings until your next question.....

[wakey_wake]

4 hours ago, Graham Davis said:

As someone involved in motor sport safety I can tell you that those waivers at karting venues have been proved useless numerous times, often very expensively. 

It was about 30 minutes later I realised the reason the disclaimer form could still be "useful": if the person having the accident believes the disclaimer form is valid, possibly after having a member of staff remind them they signed it, then they're less likely to try to bring a claim. Doesn't mean they can't, but when they don't it saves money.

 

(In case it's not obvious, I think that would be a rotten trick. Whether it is what actually happens or is intended to happen, I don't know.)

[Mad Harold]

When I had my boat survey,the surveyor (Ricky Tropman ) didn't mind me being there,but not following him around.

I watched from the railings around the dry dock cringing a bit as he rattled a hammer around the waterline.and asked a few questions after he had finished.

[enigmatic]

A few points:

 

No significant access to the cabin bilge without actually pulling up floorboards and furnishings seems to be pretty normal.

I had a couple of small inspection holes in mine, one of which revealed a more-than-just-condensation amount of clean water collecting at the back. Since the boat was owned by the broker, and the surveyor was due to attend the yard on consecutive days to look at different amounts of boats I actually secured permission for them to cut a larger inspection hatch if he felt it was necessary. He didn't

Your surveyor is already going to be checking the hull thickness, so in the unlikely event of significant internal corrosion he'll pick that up anyway. Frankly it not being blacked since 2013 sounds like a bigger deal, unless they epoxied.

 

Definitely reasonable to expect devices to be connected for a survey, unless the broker has already disclosed they are nonfunctional (which appears to be the case for the bow thruster)

I didn't have to ask as the broker had promised a new Boat Safety Certificate, which meant the surveyor was legally required to test gas and electric systems. Sure enough he found the regulators on the cooker didn't work, which the vendor would have been expected to replace if they hadn't managed to fix it to the surveyor's satisfaction.

(If your BSS is due relatively soon, might be worth asking a surveyor to add one in and make a pass a condition of sale.)

The one bit he wasn't able to test in his initial report was a battery charger he wanted to be relocated. Sure enough, that also didn't work (but the broker - who owned the boat - admitted it and paid for a replacement)

[GRLMK38]

2 hours ago, enigmatic said:

I didn't have to ask as the broker had promised a new Boat Safety Certificate, which meant the surveyor was legally required to test gas and electric systems. Sure enough he found the regulators on the cooker didn't work, which the vendor would have been expected to replace if they hadn't managed to fix it to the surveyor's satisfaction.

(If your BSS is due relatively soon, might be worth asking a surveyor to add one in and make a pass a condition of sale.)

The one bit he wasn't able to test in his initial report was a battery charger he wanted to be relocated. Sure enough, that also didn't work (but the broker - who owned the boat - admitted it and paid for a replacement)

 

Out of interest, which law are you referring to here?

[enigmatic]

1 hour ago, GRLMK38 said:

 

Out of interest, which law are you referring to here?

Well if we're being really pedantic, it's not a law, it's just the conditions of the BSS the surveyor is supposed to follow, though there might be actual legal issues if Gas Safe surveyors are certifying gas systems as safe without actually connecting them.

The main point is my surveyor wouldn't certify the system as safe until it was fully functioning, which involved the yard both initially connecting it up and doing a bit of work afterwards.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, enigmatic said:

Well if we're being really pedantic, it's not a law, it's just the conditions of the BSS the surveyor is supposed to follow, though there might be actual legal issues if Gas Safe surveyors are certifying gas systems as safe without actually connecting them.

The main point is my surveyor wouldn't certify the system as safe until it was fully functioning, which involved the yard both initially connecting it up and doing a bit of work afterwards.

 

What you actually mean is that the BSS cannot (will not) test anything that is not 'connected'.

 

If the boat is declared unsafe then the examiner has to declare the boat dangerous, inform the owner, the mooring operator, the navigation authority and the Manager of the BSS

 

"Two top copies of the BSS Warning Notice are given to the owner (or send one copy if not present). The advice is to leave one copy displayed in a prominent position on board the boat, such that, anyone entering the boat will be sure to see it."

[GRLMK38]

16 hours ago, enigmatic said:

Well if we're being really pedantic, it's not a law, it's just the conditions of the BSS the surveyor is supposed to follow, though there might be actual legal issues if Gas Safe surveyors are certifying gas systems as safe without actually connecting them.

The main point is my surveyor wouldn't certify the system as safe until it was fully functioning, which involved the yard both initially connecting it up and doing a bit of work afterwards.

 

For the sake of avoiding confusion, rather than being pedantic, for anybody reading this that is not experienced in the BSS and survey process, it is important to provide factual information.  You should distinguish the role of the marine surveyor and a BSS examiner.  Two different roles and two different remits.  The scenario you are describing relates to a BSS examiner.  If gas is involved, then you are referring to a BSS examiner that is also registered with the Gas Safe scheme.

 

Some surveyors are also BSS examiners but it would be misleading for people think that commissioning a surveyor will include the work that you describe.  The extent of the work performed by the surveyor will be described in their proposal/contract with the client before the survey starts.

[enigmatic]

I agree that surveyors and BSS examiners can be different people. In the case I described, relating to my boat, they were the same person. As a result, problems with a system I was unable to test were identified and rectified.

 

This is why I advised that one option the buyer might have is to ask about renewing the BSS at the same time. Obviously a surveyor may advise that this is unnecessary if the existing certificate has years left, and some surveyors do not conduct BSS exams. Surveyors will expect to explain other options, like full surveys vs hull only surveys before agreeing a contract anyway, and will quite happily tell people buying the boat what they do and don't expect to test if asked.

 

More generally, brokers can be persuaded to allow stuff to be switched on by qualified marine professionals in the prepurchase phase even if it's not left for the general public browsing the boat to test, which can include essential items like shore line power systems and gas systems.

(Though if they've already conceded a non-essential bow thruster doesn't work, the surveyor might be happy just to note that one is present but doesn't work)

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

More generally, brokers can be persuaded to allow stuff to be switched on by qualified marine professionals in the prepurchase phase even if it's not left for the general public browsing the boat to test, which can include essential items like shore line power systems and gas systems.

 

 

But the BSS does not allow for their examiners to lift the gas bottle out of the locker (to examine the base of the locker) unless the hose is long enough so it can be lifted out without turning it off and disconnecting it. When the amendment was made they said that you should be present, or, arrange for someone to be there to remove the gas cylinder as the examiner was not allowed to do it.

 

Disconnecting a gas hose (and presumably reconnecting) is classed as 'work' and as the examiner is being paid, it is commercial work, and therefore only a registered Gas safe BSS examiner can do it.

 

From the BSS guidance :

 

Carrying out 'work on the gas system of boats used primarily for residential or domestic purposes fall within scope of a piece of UK legislation known as the Gas Safety [Installation and Use] Regulations (GSIUR).

As such, the law demands that anyone contracted to 'work' on the LPG system of a boat in scope must be (LPG boats-competent) Gas Safe registered.

As the definition of 'work' covers the removal and replacement of a screw nipple on a gas test point, the scope of the GSIUR includes carrying out BSS LPG tightness test.

Therefore, on a boat in scope of GSIUR, examiners who are not Gas Safe registered can only complete check 7.12.2 (confirming gas tightness) by either:

• undertaking a gas tightness test using a bubble leak detector where fitted and correctly located; or,
• observing the tightness test conducted by a (LPG boats-competent) Gas Safe registered installer

Where a BSS Examiner is also Gas Safe registered is undertaking a BSS Examination of a boat in scope of GSIUR such as if it is a boat used mainly for domestic/residential purposes, the Examiner could potentially identify safety-related LPG issues beyond the extent of the BSS Requirements. In doing so, they may feel duty-bound under their Gas Safe registration to report and discuss the additional issues.

 

[GRLMK38]

I think the most recent posts above are starting to unravel the complexity that some buyers are faced with.  If it makes buyers more aware, then that's a good thing.

[enigmatic]

afaik my surveyor/examiner didn't lift any gas bottles, but the broker put a couple in there for them (obviously taking one out by the time I took possession of the boat because there's no need to be too generous!)

 

If in future I'm purchasing a boat (without a new BSS), I would certainly ask my surveyor to ensure the vendor enabled him to carry out basic  tests of gas and electrical systems

[GRLMK38]

4 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

I would certainly ask my surveyor to ensure the vendor enabled him to carry out basic  tests of gas and electrical systems

I think that is a standard request by any surveyor, whether it gets actioned by the vendor or broker is another matter. 

[Alan de Enfield]

 

Just remember (again from the BSS) If it 'aint connected, or it aint working it 'aint checked and no certificate is issued (except a fail)"

 

 

 

"An Examiner Cannot Issue A Certificate On An Incomplete Examination!"

The critical point is that all relevant items must be capable of being checked effectively and accurately. If not, the examination will be considered to be incomplete and no certification made.

[LadyG]

It strikes me that it would be better on hardstanding.

If you buy it, it will need a full scrub down, rust removal, paint etc, plus welding and new anodes, so to me, it will need  boatyard services, The obvious thing is to get the boatyard manager onside. 

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, LadyG said:

It strikes me that it would be better on hardstanding.

If you buy it, it will need a full scrub down, rust removal, paint etc, plus welding and new anodes, so to me, it will need  boatyard services, The obvious thing is to get the boatyard manager onside. 

Which post are you replying to?

[LadyG]

1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

Which post are you replying to?

OP , not any one post, just an obsevation, buying a boat that needs work done, it's best done as soon as the  boat has been surveyed and remedial work can be done without another haulout.

Edited March 21, 2021 by LadyG

[ditchcrawler]

3 minutes ago, LadyG said:

OP , not any one post, just an obsevation, buying a boat that needs work done, it's best done as soon as the  boat has been surveyed and remedial work can be done without another haulout.

OK the OP hasn't had it surveyed yet, I would imagine he is hoping it wont need welding..

[LadyG]

2 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

OK the OP hasn't had it surveyed yet, I would imagine he is hoping it wont need welding..

I thought he said it had been neglected for years.

[wakey_wake]

On 21/03/2021 at 16:32, ditchcrawler said:

OK the OP hasn't had it surveyed yet, I would imagine he is hoping it wont need welding..

It will certainly need new anodes. If it needs much more than that it might not be my boat.

 

(Currently distracted from the important task of boat buying by work... ?)

[wakey_wake]

Following up with Things I Learned which might help someone else:

 

(browser forgot my half-written reply...  probably something will be missing)

 

That went as well as can be expected.  At the point of surveying,

• after paying the deposit you have a ticking clock (probably 4 weeks) on getting things moving. Read the terms & ask questions for your broker, but expect something like... to get that deposit back you would have to show 5% of the asking price is needed for repairs to get the boat up to advertised condition AND be within those 4 weeks.
• so you want everything organised in advance, just the way I didn't. Short-list of surveyors you like the sound of & questions asked of the marina (independently of the broker) for services they can provide.
• you need the broker's agreement for ensuring there is gas & water available to exercise those things, because the surveyor can't provide them.
• you probably want the boat blacked after survey, to save on lifting costs, so check whether the marina where the boat sits can actually fit you in to do that. If they can't you might get agreement for you to pay for marina staff to move the boat to another marina that can.
• mysteries are best investigated sooner rather than later but that will be tricky because the surveyor isn't allowed to "do anything". I ended up paying marina staff to investigate problems, which got me a discount off the purchase price for estimated repair costs of things advertised to be working.
• anything you need the broker to agree to is probably best requested before paying the deposit. I was not that organised, but I was lucky somewhere with choice of broker or boat.
• surveyor's recommendations are likely to become part of your Condition Precedent for the insurance, which means your cover may be reduced in places until those things are done.
• when the surveyor is on a lifted boat, any engine requiring raw water cooling may not be testable; any with a skin tank can't be tested for overheating

Some specific things for my boat,

• The diesel heater (advertised as "needs servicing") makes a horrible noise and leaks smoke into the cabin. The insurance company knows about this from the surveyor and would not pay out on any event caused by using that heater until I've had it serviced. That's fine.
• The surveyor said "install six new anodes" which I agreed seemed sensible on a 55ft. The yard advised not to put anodes midships on the side because if/when they get torn off they can hole the hull - OK, fair warning and the surveyor didn't know? I requested one on the base plate. Then the yard says after cleaning the existing anodes are still good, and they won't fit one under the base plate (reason not yet discovered). So I have a conversation with the surveyor, insurance broker and marina to get my hull covered. Choice & effectiveness of anodes seems to be a black art (topic for another day) but I didn't want that involved in my insurance contract.
• When the broker agreed to supply water and the water isn't working, you want the surveyor to figure out why water doesn't pump. I paid the marina staff (which is less cost-effective but still OK) to discover the domestic water pump motor is seized & needs replacing.
• I overheated the (BMC) engine just taking it across the marina, and judging by the smell it makes now + the fact that it had that smell when surveyed but not when I first viewed it, I conclude the marina staff who moved the boat to the marina must also have overheated it. I didn't discover this until after buying. Probably that makes the engine servicing more expensive but I'm not sure what's likely to be damaged.
• If it's been on EHU and there is no Galvanic isolator, and the blacking has been neglected... but there's mysteriously no pitting of the hull...  check the mains earth carefully! The surveyor used a three-light checker and said it's OK. I checked each hop with my meter and find the Galvanic isolation is effected by 7 megohms between mains earth and the hull! Not a big problem to fix, but could be a big problem one day if it's not fixed.

Thanks to many folks for advice. I now have a good boat at a great price, plus a lot of other work to do and questions to ask.