C&RT say don't empty your compost toilet in our bins.

[IanD]

17 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

 

If written advice says "you should do this" and afterwords says "if you don't, you're allowed to do that" most people would say that was pretty clear -- this is what you should do, that is a non-preferred bodge. If you want to interpret that differently it's up to you, but I guarantee to you that the legal position is exactly what I said it was.

 

Please explain how this case differs from the sea toilet, instead of just saying "it's different". As far as I can see, it's literally exactly the same, except the turds are in bags in a bin instead of floating on the water.

 

Using a composting toilet properly is exceptionally good, environmentally-speaking. Whether bagging the uncomposted waste and putting it into CaRTs bins is safe or not depends very much on the exact condition of the waste -- leaving it at the side for people to step in is obviously not good -- but that's still not the real problem, it's that legally speaking putting too much of it in (several composting boats) changes the category of the waste to something that CaRT/Biffa can't deal with. They are perfectly within their rights to change the rules to stop this continuing.

 

If you think it's so safe -- and it might well be! -- then I suggest you petition the government to change the waste disposal regulations for the benefit of a couple of hundred boaters, and see how far you get.

 

Of course each poo-bag will then need to go through individual sanitary inspection to make sure it is properly dried (safe) waste mixed with sawdust or whatever, not just a bag full of sh*t from an unscrupulous boater.

 

We're getting into Viz territory here -- anyone remember "The Bottom Inspectors"? ?

Edited February 16, 2021 by IanD

[GUMPY]

7 minutes ago, IanD said:

We're getting into Viz territory here -- anyone remember "The Bottom Inspectors"? ?

That is a way to pass a whole day.............

[Alway Swilby]

8 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I don't think the forumites are getting at you in particular, perhaps you were naive, and had no idea of the potential problems of  bio hazardous waste. You put your faith in a committee of non scientific personnel who promised you facilities which they could not provide in the long term. 

I wasn't naive. I read the Humanure book which is the bible on the subject. I realised that it would be very difficult to fully deal with the pooh whilst continuously cruising but in light of the fact that CRT said OK to use their bins I went ahead. They're their bins (or their contractors). They said Ok.

[LadyG]

17 minutes ago, Loddon said:

There is or will be very soon a ban on suppying/burning certain types of fuel in domestic premisis.

That is true, but as far as I am aware smokeless fuel will still be available, even though it's output is still poisonous. 

[IanD]

22 minutes ago, redwing said:

 

Like solid fuel stoves ?

Given that there are probably at least 10000 solid fuel stoves on the canals (30% of boats -- could be more, anyone know?) compared to maybe a couple of hundred non-composting composters (<1%) -- then the answer is, no ?

 

Solid fuel burning might be banned for other (valid) reasons, but this isn't a case of a tiny minority wanting their views to take precedence over a 100x bigger majority.

 

At least, not on the canals...

3 minutes ago, Loddon said:

That is a way to pass a whole day.............

Only if you've eaten it first...

[doratheexplorer]

9 minutes ago, IanD said:

If written advice says "you should do this" and afterwords says "if you don't, you're allowed to do that" most people would say that was pretty clear -- this is what you should do, that is a non-preferred bodge. If you want to interpret that differently it's up to you, but I guarantee to you that the legal position is exactly what I said it was.

You can guarantee all you like, it doesn't make you right.  Show me the chorus of voices saying this would be banned, from earlier threads.  Go on, I dare ya!

Please explain how this case differs from the sea toilet, instead of just saying "it's different". As far as I can see, it's literally exactly the same, except the turds are in bags in a bin instead of floating on the water.

I can't be bothered to list the multitude of ways, so I'll just give you this one:  Sea toilets pollute the canal.  Compost toilets don't.  If you can't think of any more, I'd recommend a brain scan.

Using a composting toilet properly is exceptionally good, environmentally-speaking. Whether bagging the uncomposted waste and putting it into CaRTs bins is safe or not depends very much on the exact condition of the waste -- leaving it at the side for people to step in is obviously not good -- but that's still not the real problem, it's that legally speaking putting too much of it in (several composting boats) changes the category of the waste to something that CaRT/Biffa can't deal with. They are perfectly within their rights to change the rules to stop this continuing.

There you go with the legal stuff again.  I'm not arguing about whether what biffa might choose do to do is illegal.  I haven't seen anyone else saying that either.  The discussion centres on whether it's reasonable of CRT to, without warning, drop those comments, hidden in an email, one friday afternoon.

If you think it's so safe -- and it might well be! -- then I suggest you petition the government to change the waste disposal regulations for the benefit of a couple of hundred boaters, and see how far you get.

Thanks for the suggestion.  I'll give it the consideration it's due.

Of course each poo-bag will then need to go through individual sanitary inspection to make sure it is properly dried (safe) waste mixed with sawdust or whatever, not just a bag full of sh*t from an unscrupulous boater.

 

We're getting into Viz territory here -- anyone remember "The Bottom Inspectors"? ?

 

[IanD]

3 minutes ago, Alway Swilby said:

I wasn't naive. I read the Humanure book which is the bible on the subject. I realised that it would be very difficult to fully deal with the pooh whilst continuously cruising but in light of the fact that CRT said OK to use their bins I went ahead. They're their bins (or their contractors). They said Ok.

They said OK -- its not ideal or what is intended, but it's OK (at least for the time being). That's literally what they said.

 

And now too many people are poo-dumping, so they've changed their mind.

[doratheexplorer]

6 minutes ago, Alway Swilby said:

I wasn't naive. I read the Humanure book which is the bible on the subject. I realised that it would be very difficult to fully deal with the pooh whilst continuously cruising but in light of the fact that CRT said OK to use their bins I went ahead. They're their bins (or their contractors). They said Ok.

And this is the nub of the whole issue.  It's strange to me that half the posters on here are unable or unwilling to grasp this.

1 minute ago, IanD said:

They said OK -- its not ideal or what is intended, but it's OK (at least for the time being). That's literally what they said.

 

And now too many people are poo-dumping, so they've changed their mind.

Again, just conjecture...

[IanD]

Just now, doratheexplorer said:

I can't be bothered to list the multitude of ways, so I'll just give you this one:  Sea toilets pollute the canal.  Compost toilets don't.  If you can't think of any more, I'd recommend a brain scan.

 

Tell that to the people who've stepped in bags of poo. Tell that to the people who've had to empty the bins or sort the rubbish and got covered with it. Pollution has many meanings, sometimes it's in the environment, sometimes it's on people.

 

I've already agreed -- many times! -- that it's unreasonable for CaRT to drop this on people without any warning.

 

But your argument seems to be that they shouldn't make this change at all, because it's not fair.

 

Is that a fair summary of your position?

[Jim Riley]

A possible solution, tie in with local authorities. Most, if not all,  now have split waste collections. We have 5 bins. general, paper, glass and plastic, a small food waste bin and green. Put the shite and coir/sawdust into the green waste. The green waste and food bin are collected weekly, the other 3 on a 3 week alternating cycle. 

Personally I compost all my own garden waste, food waste? Nah, the hens deal with it. I use my green waste bin for storage of cement bags etc. 

 

The composting plant in Rochdale recently got so hot it self ignited and burnt the huge shed down, so will definitely kill any bugs. The resulting fine black compost is then sold, £12 for 3 big bags, cheapest available and works wonders on the garden. 

[IanD]

6 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

And this is the nub of the whole issue.  It's strange to me that half the posters on here are unable or unwilling to grasp this.

 

Again, just conjecture...

 

If I have to say ten times that they used to say binning it was OK (but clearly not advised/preferred/recommended) and have now changed that advice, I'll say it a hundred times.

 

CaRTs change of advice is in post#1, and is the whole point of this thread...

Edited February 16, 2021 by IanD

[doratheexplorer]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

 

Tell that to the people who've stepped in bags of poo. Tell that to the people who've had to empty the bins or sort the rubbish and got covered with it. Pollution has many meanings, sometimes it's in the environment, sometimes it's on people.

 

I've already agreed -- many times! -- that it's unreasonable for CaRT to drop this on people without any warning.

 

But your argument seems to be that they shouldn't make this change at all, because it's not fair.

 

Is that a fair summary of your position?

No.  If you look at my previous posts, you'll see what my position is.

 

People stepping in bags of poo is unpleasant, we can agree on that.  I'm not advocating for that though.  Obviously people will still have to empty bins.  Bins with nappies, dog poo etc in them.  The word pollution is seldom (never?) used in reference to someone getting poo on them.  I've certainly never heard someone say, after treading on a dog turd "Ugh!  I've got pollution all over my shoe".

4 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

If I have to say ten times that they used to say binning it was OK (but clearly not advised/preferred/recommended) and have now changed that advice, I'll say it a hundred times.

 

CaRTs change of advice is in post#1, and is the whole point of this thread...

Still not grasping it....

[Alan de Enfield]

17 minutes ago, Loddon said:

That is a way to pass a whole day.............

 

Talking of 'passing' .................................. read the text.

 

Lucky to alive.

 

 

[Jim Riley]

It is an unpleasant job dealing with bins full of human waste. Perhaps an increase in pay for that part of the job. Time and a Turd. 

Edited February 16, 2021 by Jim Riley
Can't get competent staff.

[IanD]

3 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

No.  If you look at my previous posts, you'll see what my position is.

 

People stepping in bags of poo is unpleasant, we can agree on that.  I'm not advocating for that though.  Obviously people will still have to empty bins.  Bins with nappies, dog poo etc in them.  The word pollution is seldom (never?) used in reference to someone getting poo on them.  I've certainly never heard someone say, after treading on a dog turd "Ugh!  I've got pollution all over my shoe".

So remind me again -- are you in favour of bag-and-bin continuing to be allowed, even though CaRT have explained why this is causing them a problem?

 

Or do you have a better idea on how to deal with this problem? Preferably one which isn't just "somebody else should solve the problem and pay for it"? Or "change the waste laws to suit a tiny number of boaters"?

 

The canal world is waiting with bated breath...

Edited February 16, 2021 by IanD

[doratheexplorer]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

So remind me again -- are you in favour of bag-and-bin continuing to be allowed, even though CaRT have explained why this is causing them a problem?

 

Or do you have a better idea on how to deal with this problem? Preferably one which isn't just "somebody else should solve the problem and pay for it"?

 

The canal world is waiting with bated breath...

Given the fact that you've suggested two options and then rubbished them both in the same breath, it's clear that you're not interested in anything approaching a constructive discussion, just dismissal.  So I won't humour you any further.  You're still welcome to read what I wrote previously if you want.

[IanD]

2 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Given the fact that you've suggested two options and then rubbished them both in the same breath, it's clear that you're not interested in anything approaching a constructive discussion, just dismissal.  So I won't humour you any further.  You're still welcome to read what I wrote previously if you want.

No, I'm interested in real solutions, not unicorn ones. Do you have any?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, doratheexplorer said:

Given the fact that you've suggested two options and then rubbished them both in the same breath, it's clear that you're not interested in anything approaching a constructive discussion, just dismissal.  So I won't humour you any further.  You're still welcome to read what I wrote previously if you want.

 

And considering he has no real 'skin in the game' (much like me), he does seem particularly vociferously opinionated on the matter, but then.....

 

I'm not sure none boat owning (but hire boating) members are going to be adversely affected by this, but I can sure see that composting bog owning boat owners will be.

 

 

[doratheexplorer]

3 minutes ago, IanD said:

No, I'm interested in real solutions, not unicorn ones. Do you have any?

I say this much, it's not possible to give concrete solutions based on what you and I know.  Part of my job involves problem solving.  Identifying the core of a problem and discussing with all parties how best to address the problem.  This is a process from which solutions typically begin to emerge.

 

Clearly CRT are staffed with employees with a similar mindset to you.

[WillCful]

I feel like the composting toilet is the progressive stance... it was mentioned earlier that this is a similar situation to when freshwater toilets were banned. I feel the progressive thing to do would be to move away from cassette/elsan disposal with the eventual aim of every boater having a composting toilet and CRT providing disposal facilities to match. 

What do land lubbers do when they fit a composting toilet in their house? I guess anyone making this choice has the space to complete composting. Like boaters not every one has this space, in fact I’d venture the majority do not. So what’s the solution, continue to use water toilets? This is not sustainable, ideally (like the shift to electric vehicles, inc. boats) there would be an incentive to shift towards composting toilets for everyone. I’m imagining big composting centres where the stuff form composting toilets can be taken to do its thing and this would just be a run if the mill municipal service that CRT could be a part of. 
 

I wonder what the cost (assuming we could magically switch overnight with no cost) of running a composting service would be to running and maintaining a sewage system, taking into account any environmental benefit. 
 

Obviously this is wishful thinking and it doesn’t help with the current situation... just thinking out loud.

 

I also can’t help but think that on the whole people are pretty squeamish about their excrement, I bet this has something to do with the low uptake of composting systems, on land that is. 
 

Also it’s always been the case that demand has to increase before any kind of sensible system gets put in place to match it (electric cars being a good example). God forbid anyone should be told what to do, even if it’s for the best. Bloody know it all elites... 

[doratheexplorer]

7 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

And considering he has no real 'skin in the game' (much like me), he does seem particularly vociferously opinionated on the matter, but then.....

 

I'm not sure none boat owning (but hire boating) members are going to be adversely affected by this, but I can sure see that composting bog owning boat owners will be.

 

 

Well I don't have a composting toilet but i do think they're an interesting option.  I'm curious as to what research has been done on the way cc'ers use these toilets (none?), and what the actual hazards are.  I'd be interested to know how these hazards compare to the other hazards which boating creates.  Then I'd be interested in possible mitigation methods specific to the hazards.

Edited February 16, 2021 by doratheexplorer

[Jim Riley]

2 minutes ago, WillCful said:

I feel like the composting toilet is the progressive stance... it was mentioned earlier that this is a similar situation to when freshwater toilets were banned. I feel the progressive thing to do would be to move away from cassette/elsan disposal with the eventual aim of every boater having a composting toilet and CRT providing disposal facilities to match. 

What do land lubbers do when they fit a composting toilet in their house? I guess anyone making this choice has the space to complete composting. Like boaters not every one has this space, in fact I’d venture the majority do not. So what’s the solution, continue to use water toilets? This is not sustainable, ideally (like the shift to electric vehicles, inc. boats) there would be an incentive to shift towards composting toilets for everyone. I’m imagining big composting centres where the stuff form composting toilets can be taken to do its thing and this would just be a run if the mill municipal service that CRT could be a part of. 
 

I wonder what the cost (assuming we could magically switch overnight with no cost) of running a composting service would be to running and maintaining a sewage system, taking into account any environmental benefit. 
 

Obviously this is wishful thinking and it doesn’t help with the current situation... just thinking out loud.

 

I also can’t help but think that on the whole people are pretty squeamish about their excrement, I bet this has something to do with the low uptake of composting systems, on land that is. 
 

Also it’s always been the case that demand has to increase before any kind of sensible system gets put in place to match it (electric cars being a good example). God forbid anyone should be told what to do, even if it’s for the best. Bloody know it all elites... 

The green waste hot composting system already exists. What is the PPPPW volume? It's not a lot. 

[doratheexplorer]

4 minutes ago, WillCful said:

I feel like the composting toilet is the progressive stance... it was mentioned earlier that this is a similar situation to when freshwater toilets were banned. I feel the progressive thing to do would be to move away from cassette/elsan disposal with the eventual aim of every boater having a composting toilet and CRT providing disposal facilities to match. 

What do land lubbers do when they fit a composting toilet in their house? I guess anyone making this choice has the space to complete composting. Like boaters not every one has this space, in fact I’d venture the majority do not. So what’s the solution, continue to use water toilets? This is not sustainable, ideally (like the shift to electric vehicles, inc. boats) there would be an incentive to shift towards composting toilets for everyone. I’m imagining big composting centres where the stuff form composting toilets can be taken to do its thing and this would just be a run if the mill municipal service that CRT could be a part of. 
 

I wonder what the cost (assuming we could magically switch overnight with no cost) of running a composting service would be to running and maintaining a sewage system, taking into account any environmental benefit. 
 

Obviously this is wishful thinking and it doesn’t help with the current situation... just thinking out loud.

 

I also can’t help but think that on the whole people are pretty squeamish about their excrement, I bet this has something to do with the low uptake of composting systems, on land that is. 
 

Also it’s always been the case that demand has to increase before any kind of sensible system gets put in place to match it (electric cars being a good example). God forbid anyone should be told what to do, even if it’s for the best. Bloody know it all elites... 

Some good points there.  What you're asking is for people to try and think broadly and for the long term.  This seems to be beyond the reach of many.

 

Certainly, from a standing start, a composting system is cheaper than digging and building sewers.  Over time, existing sewers must be expensive things to repair and maintain.  I do wonder if, in 50 years time, people will be looking back and scratching their heads as to why were weren't all composting.

[tree monkey]

2 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Well I don't have a composting toilet but i do think they're an interesting option.  I'm curious as to what research has been done on the way cc'ers use these toilets (none?), and what the actual hazards are.  I'd be interested to know how these hazards compare to the other hazards which boating creates.  Then I'd be interested in possible mitigation methods specific to the hazards.

If you're on FB there is a very sensible and informative group called

 

Compost toilets for boats and off grid living 

 

It's the sort of group that makes FB worthwhile 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, doratheexplorer said:

Well I don't have a composting toilet but i do think they're an interesting option.  I'm curious as to what research has been done on the way cc'ers use these toilets (none?), and what the actual hazards are.  I'd be interested to know how these hazards compare to the other hazards which boating creates.  Then I'd be interested in possible mitigation methods specific to the hazards.

 

Oil disposal was always a problem from memory but ISTR there was random places were it could be disposed of, not sure 6 years on if such things exists, but if they do a similar scheme could perhaps operate for composting loos, at least while they encourage owners to phase them out, say over 1 to 2 years.