C&RT say don't empty your compost toilet in our bins.

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Dr Bob said:

No they are not.

Damien has mentioned a 'should not'. That is not proposing to change what they have been proposing for the last 3 years.

Put your money where your mouth is. £50 that the practice of solid waste is not banned by the CRT in 12 months without an easy alternative put in its place?

I didn't say it *would* be banned, it all depends how people like you react to the "should not" request.

 

If people do as requested and stop doing the bin-and-chuck then CaRT will have accomplished what they set out to do, which is fixing the waste disposal problem.

 

If people don't -- which I guess includes you, from your comments -- then they'll be faced with having to take more draconian action, or stop all waste collection from bins.

 

I think that in this case they'll have no choice other than to ban the use of composting toilets, except maybe for people like Peter who can prove ("...to the satisfaction of the Board...") that they're composting the waste properly.

 

What do you think CaRT will do if this happens i.e.. the bag-and-chuck-it boaters refuse to play ball? What is your suggestion for "an easy alternative", and who should pay for it?

 

I suggest you stop trying to make all this "somebody else's problem" (which "they" have to fix) when it's actually yours...

Edited February 16, 2021 by IanD

[doratheexplorer]

9 minutes ago, Loddon said:

I wouldn't call it lying, they may be believing an alternative version of the truth

 

Do you have any evidence that these toilets don't work in the way claimed?

[GUMPY]

4 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Do you have any evidence that these toilets don't work in the way claimed?

I have not said they dont work when the output is composted

If the output in not fully composted then its just shit in a bag.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Do you have any evidence that these toilets don't work in the way claimed?

 

 

If the toilets are used in the way they are supposed to be used, they will work in the way they are claimed to work.

The problem comes when the toilet container is full and the next stage is to go into a composting situation / bin.

Successfully doing that is nothing to do with the toilet, it is everything to do with 'operator error'.

[Chagall]

22 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

You have to assume that any logical solution to a problem involving waste is going to be abused, and factor that into your solution. It's no use imposing a system otherwise - check the trees for dog poo bags, or streets for litter. It's not just some people, it's most of us, at least some of the time. Even if CRT set up three compost bins at every station, plenty would use the wrong one, put noncompostable waste in if the bins were full, tip oil into them, or just dump the bags beside them. They'd be useless within a fortnight.

No doubt some holier-than-thou boater will tell me in a minute that they have never, ever, broken a single law or waterways guideline, but it won't be true.

Yes it happens everywhere and about every rule and not just waste, but it would be wrong to stop trying to improve the system.  The waste system is as you say already abused, with waste left on the floor,  et cetera and I have no doubt that dry toilet bins could fill up with general waste, but it could just as likely go the other way and that general waste bins end up with considerably less human faeces in them.  Why is it not worth trying, and not just in London?  Civic responsibility and care for others is still the majority, unless you are saying that more than 70% of boaters are abusing the system?  If so then C&RT are just as likely to vastly increase the license fee to reflect that and is possibly why C&RT seem to discourage boating at all.  

 

 

Edited February 16, 2021 by Chagall
spelling

[doratheexplorer]

3 minutes ago, Loddon said:

I have not said they dont work when the output is composted

If the output in not fully composted then its just shit in a bag.

 

I'm talking about the claims made by boat owners who have them and say that what comes out is dry and odourless. 

 

Do you have evidence that that's untrue?

[haggis]

1 minute ago, doratheexplorer said:

I'm talking about the claims made by boat owners who have them and say that what comes out is dry and odourless. 

 

Do you have evidence that that's untrue?

But what boaters are not telling us is how long it takes to get the solids  to a dry and odourless state. A week a month, a year? The solids certainly wont be dry and odourless when the loo container is emptied as I understand that is done with days intervals. I presume that is at that stage that the bagging takes place rather than the solids going into another container to compost for disposing of later (by bag or if left long enough as proper compost. 

 

haggis

[IanD]

13 minutes ago, Chagall said:

Yes it happens everywhere and about every rule and not just waste, but it would be wrong to stop trying to improve the system.  The waste system is as you say already abused, with waste left on the floor,  et cetera and I have no doubt that dry toilet bins could fill up with general waste, but it could just as likely go the other way and that general waste bins end up with considerably less human faeces in them.  Why is it not worth trying, and not just in London?  Civic responsibility and care for others is still the majority, unless you are saying that more than 70% of boaters are abusing the system?  If so then C&RT are just as likely to vastly increase the license fee to reflect that and is possibly why C&RT seem to discourage boating at all.  

 

 

IIRC the numbers further up the thread said that a survey had shown that out of 250 "dry toilet" users on boats, only 70 were composting the waste as intended. Note that this is out of >30000 boats on the canals, so less than 1% use composting toilets but of these only a quarter compost the waste properly -- which means three-quarters of them (with composting toilets) are abusing the system, and making things unpleasant for the other 99% of boaters (and CaRT, and Biffa...).

 

So are you seriously suggesting that "somebody" (presumably meaning CaRT) should install and maintain an (expensive) network of maintained composting bins across the entire canal network for the benefit of less than 1% of boats, when they can't find enough money for things like maintenance and dredging which benefit 100% of boaters?

 

In other words, "I want something which benefits a tiny minority and I want somebody else -- or everybody else -- to pay for it".

 

As I said, if this was a future green policy for all boaters the case for it would be very different, but it's like charging points for electric boats at the moment -- a great idea in the future if everyone does it, but still the money has to come from somewhere...

Edited February 16, 2021 by IanD

[tree monkey]

19 minutes ago, haggis said:

But what boaters are not telling us is how long it takes to get the solids  to a dry and odourless state. A week a month, a year? The solids certainly wont be dry and odourless when the loo container is emptied as I understand that is done with days intervals. I presume that is at that stage that the bagging takes place rather than the solids going into another container to compost for disposing of later (by bag or if left long enough as proper compost. 

 

haggis

As I understand it, the process is fairly rapid, the cover material acts to dry the waste, combined with the stirring and the fan, it becomes the dry product that is being spoken about, we are talking days not weeks.

This is why being described as composting is wrong, there is very little, if any, composting going on in the container that I can see at least, composting by it's very nature will produce smells and effluent which is fine in a controlled composting system,  but not in the boats bog

 

 

 

Edited February 16, 2021 by tree monkey

[Chagall]

11 minutes ago, IanD said:

IIRC the numbers further up the thread said that a survey had shown that out of 250 "dry toilet" users on boats, only 70 were composting the waste as intended. Note that this is out of >30000 boats on the canals, so less than 1% use composting toilets but of these only a quarter compost the waste properly -- which means three-quarters of them (with composting toilets) are abusing the system, and making things unpleasant for the other 99% of boaters (and CaRT, and Biffa...).

 

So are you seriously suggesting that "somebody" (presumably meaning CaRT) should install and maintain an (expensive) network of maintained composting bins across the entire canal network for the benefit of less than 1% of boats, when they can't find enough money for things like maintenance and dredging which benefit 100% of boaters?  No, I suggest that those who want it, pay for it and be allowed that choice.

 

In other words, "I want something which benefits a tiny minority and I want somebody else -- or everybody else -- to pay for it".

 

No, I suggest that those who want it, pay for it and be allowed that choice.

 

My point is really about choice and the dwindling margins for such.  By denying those who have purchased dry toilets access to dispose of the contents it severely limits that freedom of choice. Some, like Peter, use composting toilets how they should be, some chose this type of toilet as a personal preference because of the on board benefits and as an alternative to elsan disposal. 

 

There is a means of dealing with human faeces from dry toilets, that Alan has outlined, and I understand that the contents of a bucket are considerably nicer to deal with than a full cassette. So apart from the cost, why is is not worth offering a trial in  strategic areas other than just London?     The system already has waste bins and a contract to empty, I of course have no idea what an extra bin would cost, but it would be helpful to know that. 

Edited February 16, 2021 by Chagall
addition moved

[IanD]

9 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

As I understand it, the process is fairly rapid, the cover material acts to dry the waste, combined with the stirring and the fan, it becomes the dry product that is being spoken about, we are talking days not weeks.

This is why being described as composting is wrong, there is very little, if any, composting going on in the container that I can see at least, composting by it's very nature will produce smells and effluent which is fine in a controlled composting system.

 

 

 

Depending on your, erm, frequency of use it’s difficult to say just how often you’ll have to empty the ‘solids’ bank. It is, however, highly likely that your waste won’t be garden-ready. What you’ll need to do is move it to a second location (such as your boat roof or warm engine bay – mesophiles, the teeny tiny organisms that do the composting, are a bit like Goldilocks – they like it warm but not too cold or hot) and regularly aerate it until it reaches its ideal humus state.

 

Do remember though, if you can’t keep it stored until it’s ready to use, it will still need to be disposed of in an appropriate way – for example a suitable composting site away from the canal. It should not be put in our bins – and absolutely must not be disposed of on or near the towpaths. Liquid waste can be emptied down an Elsan point.

[IanD]

1 minute ago, Chagall said:

 

My point is really about choice and the dwindling margins for such.  By denying those who have purchased dry toilets access to dispose of the contents it severely limits that freedom of choice. Some, like Peter, use composting toilets how they should be, some chose this type of toilet as a personal preference because of the on board benefits and as an alternative to elsan disposal. 

 

There is a means of dealing with human faeces from dry toilets, that Alan has outlined, and I understand that the contents of a bucket are considerably nicer to deal with than a full cassette. So apart from the cost, why is is not worth offering a trial in  strategic areas other than just London?     The system already has waste bins and a contract to empty, I of course have no idea what an extra bin would cost, but it would be helpful to know that. 

 

"By denying those who have purchased dry toilets access to dispose of the contents it severely limits that freedom of choice." They have the choice to use the toilets as CaRT and the manufacturers intended -- inflicting their sh*t-in-bags on everyone else is not a freedom of choice issue, it's an abuse of the system issue.

 

Where does the money come from then?

 

Why should CaRT divert scarce money from things that benefit all boaters (like maintenance) to something that benefits <1% of boaters who are doing something that they really shouldn't be?

 

As quoted above from post#1, it's not just providing the bins (and stopping them being abused, which may be impossible...) -- to work properly they have to be maintained (aeration) and used in sequence, and then the finished compost has to be removed. The last one isn't a problem, but looking after the bins needs manpower (where from?) and money. Unless all this is done you're straight back to the "too much human waste in a bin" problem, which is where CaRT are today.

[tree monkey]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

Depending on your, erm, frequency of use it’s difficult to say just how often you’ll have to empty the ‘solids’ bank. It is, however, highly likely that your waste won’t be garden-ready. What you’ll need to do is move it to a second location (such as your boat roof or warm engine bay – mesophiles, the teeny tiny organisms that do the composting, are a bit like Goldilocks – they like it warm but not too cold or hot) and regularly aerate it until it reaches its ideal humus state.

 

Do remember though, if you can’t keep it stored until it’s ready to use, it will still need to be disposed of in an appropriate way – for example a suitable composting site away from the canal. It should not be put in our bins – and absolutely must not be disposed of on or near the towpaths. Liquid waste can be emptied down an Elsan point.

Yeah, I am aware that some people claim to be able to compost and I mean actually compost in a sealed container on for example the boat roof.

 

I remain to be convinced tbh, I have over the years been involved in composting in various jobs, from back garden small heaps, to allotment muck heaps to bins loaded by reversing a tractor and trailer in, I would be open to be proved wrong but composting is a complex process involving multiple different processes and organisms, smells, heat and liquid effluent is part of the process, 

[IanD]

4 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

Yeah, I am aware that some people claim to be able to compost and I mean actually compost in a sealed container on for example the boat roof.

 

I remain to be convinced tbh, I have over the years been involved in composting in various jobs, from back garden small heaps, to allotment muck heaps to bins loaded by reversing a tractor and trailer in, I would be open to be proved wrong but composting is a complex process involving multiple different processes and organisms, smells, heat and liquid effluent is part of the process, 

If they do compost it properly then that's absolutely fine, regardless of where and how it is done, that's how these toilets are intended to be used.

 

It might not be easy (or entirely odourless or oozeless as claimed) but all kudos to those people who take the bother to do the right thing, this is a properly green solution (better than pumpout or cassette?) to the boat poo problem.

 

If they can't be bothered (or can't do this for whatever reason) and their solution is to dump the result in (or next to...) a canalside bin in a bag, they shouldn't have a composting toilet.

Edited February 16, 2021 by IanD

[peterboat]

1 minute ago, tree monkey said:

Yeah, I am aware that some people claim to be able to compost and I mean actually compost in a sealed container on for example the boat roof.

 

I remain to be convinced tbh, I have over the years been involved in composting in various jobs, from back garden small heaps, to allotment muck heaps to bins loaded by reversing a tractor and trailer in, I would be open to be proved wrong but composting is a complex process involving multiple different processes and organisms, smells, heat and liquid effluent is part of the process, 

Mine is a simple system sawdust/coconut coir on bottom of container poo in container add veg matter from preparing veg to eat add sawdust as required, when full empty on compost heap at allotment along with green/brown waste leave 3 years and use, worms eat their way through it doing wormy stuff!

[Alan de Enfield]

17 minutes ago, Chagall said:

I of course have no idea what an extra bin would cost, but it would be helpful to know that. 

 

No doubt C&RT get a quantity discount but our Biffa 660 litre bins cost about £21 + VAT per week.

We are currently on lockdown so have put the bins 'on retention' which means we pay £2.50 + VAT each to 'not have them emptied'.

 

I had an email from Biffa a few days ago saying that (backdated to 1/12/20) they were altering the retention prices to 50% of standard rate (no warning, no consultation) so I responded accusing them of sharp practice and telling them to cancel my contract and come and collect the bins.

 

Today had a call from the account manager explaining about the costs they are incuring and would I accept a 30% of standard rate retention fee. I refused and said why should I pay you £7 to not have my bin emptied, she said she didn't want to lose our long standing business so I suggested that I'd keep on with the contract if they reverted to the £2.50 + VAT agreement, and we'll see what happens after Easter whern (hopefully) the matket picks up and travel is allowed.

 

She agreed.

 

Lets say that C&RT put 3 bins (one for each stage of composting) at 500 sites around the system, thats 1500 bins At  £20 each (per week) that equates to some £30,000 PER WEEK.

I don't know how it would work out if Biffa are supplying but not emptying every week - presumably some of the bins would not be emptied for 'months'

 

Cost = Unknown

Edited February 16, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[Chagall]

27 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

As I said, if this was a future green policy for all boaters the case for it would be very different, but it's like charging points for electric boats at the moment -- a great idea in the future if everyone does it, but still the money has to come from somewhere...

If it isn't given a chance then it never will become a viable and green alternative.

 

With regard to "Where does the money come from then?"  Ive said, from those who wish to use the dry toilets and not compost it.   If they dont want to pay for it and would prefer to chuck it in general waste then so be it, the toilets will eventually be banned. 

 

edit to add:  which is a shame for those who do compost! ... all for the sake of not willing to trial. 

 

 

Edited February 16, 2021 by Chagall

[IanD]

19 minutes ago, Chagall said:

If it isn't given a chance then it never will become a viable and green alternative.

 

With regard to "Where does the money come from then?"  Ive said, from those who wish to use the dry toilets and not compost it.   If they dont want to pay for it and would prefer to chuck it in general waste then so be it, the toilets will eventually be banned. 

 

You've hit the nail on the head ?

 

Put in some real numbers (I invite you to try, I did) and it rapidly becomes obvious that -- unless almost everybody does it -- the cost of composting (time, labour) and disposal makes this more expensive per poo-pound than using pumpouts. My guesstimate was maybe 3x higher but it could easily be more than that. So it'll never be "given a chance" unless/until it becomes a positive part of CaRT future green strategy for all boats.

 

Since the justifications people have used for installing these toilets wasn't just convenience but avoiding shelling out 15 quid per pumpout (so the installation cost is paid back), paying out more than this instead destroys this rationale -- you'd have to be a very committed greenie to pay this, even if you could afford it, and you don't even end up with any compost to use or sell.

 

Sorry, but it really is all about the money until the day when CaRT have unlimited funds or money grows on trees ?

Edited February 16, 2021 by IanD

[frahkn]

33 minutes ago, haggis said:

But what boaters are not telling us is how long it takes to get the solids  to a dry and odourless state. A week a month, a year? The solids certainly wont be dry and odourless when the loo container is emptied as I understand that is done with days intervals. I presume that is at that stage that the bagging takes place rather than the solids going into another container to compost for disposing of later (by bag or if left long enough as proper compost. 

 

haggis

I am telling you that I empty the solids every three weeks, at that stage the material is not dry and odourless; its very similar to one year old leaf mould. That is slightly damp (squeezing it would not generate any liquid), smelling like leaf mould and inoffensive to handle (i.e. put in another container). 

 

I promise you that this is the case even though I have no dog in the ring because I don't ever throw the material away.

 

Obviously I'm not able to confirm that this is the position for everybody with such a toilet but I (modestly) assume that my "output" is similar to everyone else's.

[IanD]

5 minutes ago, frahkn said:

I am telling you that I empty the solids every three weeks, at that stage the material is not dry and odourless; its very similar to one year old leaf mould. That is slightly damp (squeezing it would not generate any liquid), smelling like leaf mould and inoffensive to handle (i.e. put in another container). 

 

I promise you that this is the case even though I have no dog in the ring because I don't ever throw the material away.

 

Obviously I'm not able to confirm that this is the position for everybody with such a toilet but I (modestly) assume that my "output" is similar to everyone else's.

I think what state the waste is in initially is a distraction to the key point; if you then compost it, it doesn't matter, if you bag and bin it's a problem no matter what state it's in.

 

The real losers here are going to be those who do compost and use their waste properly, and might be forced to remove their (excellent, green) toilet by the selfish actions of those who don't ?

 

Edited February 16, 2021 by IanD

[Alway Swilby]

1 hour ago, Loddon said:

I have not said they dont work when the output is composted

If the output in not fully composted then its just shit in a bag.

 

Even if not composted it isn't just shit in a bag. It's 60% sawdust or some other desiccating material and 40% shit. There is no wee in there to make it smell. It has been sat in the bucket for 2 or 3 weeks and stirred regularly. It has had a fan running 24/7 drawing air over it and it is dry. It is absolutely nothing like the contents of a cassette or a pump out tank.

 

1 hour ago, haggis said:

But what boaters are not telling us is how long it takes to get the solids  to a dry and odourless state. A week a month, a year? The solids certainly wont be dry and odourless when the loo container is emptied as I understand that is done with days intervals. I presume that is at that stage that the bagging takes place rather than the solids going into another container to compost for disposing of later (by bag or if left long enough as proper compost. 

 

haggis

Our bucket is about 25 litres and lasts the two of us about three weeks. The end product when emptying it is dry due to the 60% sawdust, the stirring  and the constant airflow. It has a smell but it's not unpleasant, its an earthy sort of smell.

 

Our toilet is one of these: Separette Villa. Nowhere in the blurb does it mention the word composting @IanD.

 

We are now in the fortunate position of being able to take ours home and put it in a spare wheelie bin and mix it up with kitchen food waste. When we are out cruising we take the waste home (we have to spend one night at home every 60 days for the insurance). Prior to this when we were CC we did bag and bin and CRT saying that this was ok was a big factor in our decision to go down the dry toilet route.

28 minutes ago, IanD said:

I think what state the waste is in initially is a distraction to the key point; if you then compost it, it doesn't matter, if you bag and bin it's a problem no matter what state it's in.

 

The real losers here are going to be those who do compost and use their waste properly, and might be forced to remove their (excellent, green) toilet by the selfish actions of those who don't ?

 

When we were bagging and binning we never considered ourselves selfish. We were acting on advice given out by CRT in 2016.

 

Edited February 16, 2021 by Alway Swilby

[David Mack]

3 minutes ago, Alway Swilby said:

Our bucket is about 25 litres and lasts the two of us about three weeks. The end product when emptying it is dry due to the 60% sawdust, the stirring  and the constant airflow. It has a smell but it's not unpleasant, its an earthy sort of smell.

And presumably the 40% consists of poo which varies between 3 weeks and a few hours old. Whereas if your bucket lasts only 5 days, then the poo content is an average of 2-3 days old. I assume that may be rather different.

[Midnight]

1 hour ago, doratheexplorer said:

Does that mean that all the people using them are lying?

 Not lying just interpreting the situation to suit themselves. I have a boating colleague who just fitted a composting toilet. He is a very reasonable chap. but when I asked him what he would do if CaRT ban the depositing of poo bags into general waste. He said he would simply save it up until he was in a remote wooded spot then dig a hole and bury it. Not an unreasonable answer but probably illegal.

I'm trying to keep up at the back but isn't it permissible to empty part composted poo in the Elsan?

 

1 hour ago, Arthur Marshall said:

 

No doubt some holier-than-thou boater will tell me in a minute that they have never, ever, broken a single law or waterways guideline, but it won't be true.

"I have never, ever broken a broken a single law or waterways guideline" 

 

 

Edited February 16, 2021 by Midnight

[Alway Swilby]

1 minute ago, David Mack said:

And presumably the 40% consists of poo which varies between 3 weeks and a few hours old. Whereas if your bucket lasts only 5 days, then the poo content is an average of 2-3 days old. I assume that may be rather different.

Even when less than a day old it is stirred and mixed up with the sawdust so it not like a freshly deposited turd ?

[Chagall]

9 minutes ago, Midnight said:

 Not lying just interpreting the situation to suit themselves. I have a boating colleague who just fitted a composting toilet. He is a very reasonable chap. but when I asked him what he would do if CaRT ban the depositing of poo bags into general waste. He said he would simply save it up until he was in a remote wooded spot then dig a hole and bury it. Not an unreasonable answer but probably illegal.

I'm trying to keep up at the back but isn't it permissible to empty part composted poo in the Elsan?

 

 

Yes, I wanted to know about that, if it was possible or if you needed to find 'parts' to tip down the elasan without having to tip a quantity of coir, sawdust in also. 

 

My concern is that now having no alternative those who do not compost will tip it into the elsan instead. Higher costs for C&RT to unblock elsans perhaps.