C&RT say don't empty your compost toilet in our bins.

[GUMPY]

There are times when I am very glad I boat on waterways where it is still legal to dump effluent directly into the river?

[doratheexplorer]

7 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

I agree but isn't that always the way, I've had the most bizzare conversations with people trying to find out why they think its perfectly ok to dump waste near the bins but not actually in the bins.

A few people always seem to feck it up for the majority 

What reasons do they give?

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Loddon said:

There are times when I am very glad I boat on waterways where it is still legal to dump effluent directly into the river?

 

 

It is surprising how many Rivers allow you to do that - even the Thames !!

 

 

Just now, doratheexplorer said:

What reasons do they give?

 

 

It saves them having to walk thru' the leaky bags emitting obnoxious slimy stuff that smells like Poo.

[haggis]

1 minute ago, doratheexplorer said:

What reasons do they give?

I can think of a few off the top of my head. Bin full, I am not tall enough to lift the lid or the real cracker, the bin smells when I open the lid !

I,ve heard them all!

haggis

[tree monkey]

Just now, doratheexplorer said:

What reasons do they give?

Mostly just mutter, the last one claimed she was recycling as she stacked empty booze bottles in front of the bin and continued as I put them in the bin. I tried to explain there was no actual recycling at the site and if left it would stop the bins from being emptied,  to be fair I was slightly grumpy so probably not explaining very well

 

[GUMPY]

9 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

It is surprising how many Rivers allow you to do that - even the Thames !!

Only on the tidal bit, not above Teddington Weir.

[IanD]

1 hour ago, doratheexplorer said:

  I give up.

They didn't need to.  The answer is in black and white in the boater's handbook.  Page 60 if you want to check.

Is that the same "black and white" advice that was posted earlier,the first line of which says that the waste from composting toilets should be composted?

 

If people had followed this advice none of this would be an issue. The problem is that (according to the figures quoted earlier) 75% of owners don't, they bag it up and put it in the bin because it's easier than composting it and nobody stopped them doing it -- in fact CaRT allowed it (but did not encourage it), presumably as the least bad alternative to dumping it on the towpath.

 

Nowhere in CaRTs terms and conditions does it say that a large number of boaters are encouraged to throw large quantities of their poo into the waste bins, or will be permitted to do so in the future.

 

Anyone who bought a composting toilet assuming they could carry on doing this forever no matter how much waste was dumped assumed wrong -- you know what "assume" does? ?

 

Admittedly CaRT should have given some warning about the change, giving enough time (6 months?) for people to either find a way of composting the waste or replace the toilet -- and it's not their job to deal with the poo of people who don't follow clear advice like "should be composted". CaRT don't need to find a solution to this, the errant composting toilet owners do.

 

I guess exactly the same happened when sea/freshwater toilets were banned, those who'd fitted them because they were cheap and convenient protested, but CaRT couldn't let everyone keep on dumping untreated sewage into the canals.

 

This new rule change is no different, except applied to waste bins instead of the water.

Edited February 15, 2021 by IanD

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Only on the tidal bit, not above Teddington Weir.

 

The PLA byelaws allow the discharge of sewage by a 'pleasure vessel'. So on the 95 miles of the Thames that are under PLA control, it would appear that leisure boats can discharge sewage in accordance with Byelaw 49

 

PLA Byelaw 49 came into force on 1 January 2015. The Byelaw prevents the discharge of sewage into the Thames from specified vessels, consistent with the continuing improvement of the Thames environment, particularly with Thames Water's project to stop the discharge of untreated sewage into the river, and brings the Thames into line with a number of other UK harbours and inland waterways.

For the purposes of this byelaw, sewage refers to faeces and urine plus any water associated with them. In some circumstances, sewage from vessels is known as "black water".

The full text of the Port of London Authority Byelaw 49 is reproduced below:

49 (2012). DISCHARGE OF SEWAGE INTO THE THAMES

49.1 The owner of:

1. a vessel licensed under section 124 of the Act or
2. a houseboat

must, from 1 January 2015, ensure that no sewage is discharged into the Thames.

49.2 In this byelaw “houseboat” means any vessel (other than a ship registered under the Merchant Shipping Act 1995 or any vessel usually used for navigation) which is used primarily as a place of habitation, or as a place for accommodating or receiving persons for the purposes of shelter, recreation, entertainment or refreshment, or as club premises or offices, while it is moored.

In 2015 the PLA proposed to extend the byelaw covering all commercial vessels in the Thames, as currently the passenger boat industry and commercial sailing yachts are not required to contain their Blackwater. This is currently going through consultation with Department for transport and will state; Aofhjvv by 2023

 

It is interesting to note that a 'pleasure boat' does not come under the licensing criteria of section 124 of the Act, and would thus appear not to be affected by the sewage disposal legislation :

 

124.—(1) Subject to subsection (2) of this section, a vessel shall not be navigated, worked or moored within the vessel licensing area unless—

 

(a)there is in force in relation to it a relevant licence issued by the Port Authority in accordance with byelaws made by the Port Authority; and

 

(b)the name of the vessel and such other particulars as may be prescribed in byelaws made by the Port Authority are displayed on the vessel in the manner prescribed by those byelaws.

 

(2) Subsection (1) of this section shall not apply to—

 

(a)a vessel which is navigated, worked or moored only occasionally in the vessel licensing area;

 

(b)a pleasure vessel;

 

(c)a hovercraft or seaplane;

 

(d)any vessel (other than a ship registered under the Merchant Shipping Act 1995 or any vessel usually used for navigation) which is used primarily as a place of habitation, or as a place for accommodating or receiving persons for the purposes of shelter, recreation, entertainment or refreshment, or as club premises or offices, while it is moored;

[Chagall]

12 minutes ago, IanD said:

Is that the same "black and white" advice that was posted earlier,the first line of which says that the waste from composting toilets should be composted?

 

If people had followed this advice none of this would be an issue. The problem is that (according to the figures quoted earlier) 75% of owners don't, they bag it up and put it in the bin because it's easier than composting it and nobody stopped them doing it -- in fact CaRT allowed it (but did not encourage it), presumably as the least bad alternative to dumping it on the towpath.

 

Nowhere in CaRTs terms and conditions does it say that a large number of boaters are encouraged to throw large quantities of their poo into the waste bins, or will be permitted to do so in the future.

 

Anyone who bought a composting toilet assuming they could carry on doing this forever no matter how much waste was dumped assumed wrong -- you know what "assume" does? ?

 

Admittedly CaRT should have given some warning about the change, giving enough time (6 months?) for people to either find a way of composting the waste or replace the toilet -- and it's not their job to deal with the poo of people who don't follow clear advice like "should be composted".

 

I guess exactly the same happened when sea/freshwater toilets were banned, those who'd fitted them because they were cheap and convenient protested, but CaRT couldn't let everyone keep on dumping untreated sewage into the canals.

 

This new rule change is no different, except applied to waste bins instead of the water.

All of that may be true, but what are boaters who have gone for a composting toilet to do now?  I agree that the cost of dealing with it it shouldn't be borne by those of us who have regular toilet systems, but when C&RT now say that human waste should only go into the elsans provided (or pump out)  then it inevitably will end up in there, along with all the extra klingons!  The rest of the boating community will end up paying to unblock the elsans and so even less money going into maintenance. 

 

I hope that those who do not compost will find land based places to take it, but I bet many wont. 

 

edit to add:  that I apologise in advance if I am unaware of the constituents of a bucket of waste, I know there is a stirrer involved so Im guessing it all ends up fairly well mixed and broken up. So as Ive already said before, it might mean fiddling around for lumps to  throw into an elsan?  Is the average boater going to do that, especially as they have purchased a composting toilet to avoid visiting smelly elsans...and not necessarily to be 'green' 

Edited February 15, 2021 by Chagall

[IanD]

39 minutes ago, Chagall said:

I suspect the non composting compost toilet owners will just send it all down the elsan now, what other choice do they have.

 

 I reckon C&RT need to get ready for further elsan blockages of bucket fulls of partially composted waste with the possible additions of coir and sawdust et cetera.  Along with the whole contents of cat litter trays that at least one cat owner seems to suggest they tip into the elsan. 

 

 

And if that happens, you can bet that CaRT will have no choice but to ban composting toilets completely, like they did with sea/freshwater ones. Wrong type of toilet, no license.

 

Which means the people who have them using them properly (composting!) will be royally piss*d off. But they shouldn't blame CaRT, they should blame the 75% of non-composting bag-dumpers...

 

6 minutes ago, Chagall said:

All of that may be true, but what are boaters who have gone for a composting toilet to do now?  I agree that the cost of dealing with it it shouldn't be borne by those of us who have regular toilet systems, but when C&RT now say that human waste should only go into the elsans provided (or pump out)  then it inevitably will end up in there, along with all the extra klingons!  The rest of the boating community will end up paying to unblock the elsans and so even less money going into maintenance. 

 

I hope that those who do not compost will find land based places to take it, but I bet many wont. 

If it's still allowed, they should use it properly as a composting toilet, as was always the intention.

 

If it's not, they should blame the 75% for forcing CaRT to change the rules so they have to buy a new toilet...

Edited February 15, 2021 by IanD

[GUMPY]

19 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The PLA byelaws allow the discharge of sewage by a 'pleasure vessel'. So on the 95 miles of the Thames that are under PLA control, it would appear that leisure boats can discharge sewage in accordance with Byelaw 49

That's all downstream of Teddington i.e. the tidal bit. Being really picky the PLA boundary is actually a hundred yards or so further downstream than the lock and is marked by an obelisk on the bank.

Edited February 15, 2021 by Loddon

[Chagall]

21 minutes ago, IanD said:

And if that happens, you can bet that CaRT will have no choice but to ban composting toilets completely, like they did with sea/freshwater ones. Wrong type of toilet, no license.

 

Which means the people who have them using them properly (composting!) will be royally piss*d off. But they shouldn't blame CaRT, they should blame the 75% of non-composting bag-dumpers...

 

If it's still allowed, they should use it properly as a composting toilet, as was always the intention.

 

If it's not, they should blame the 75% for forcing CaRT to change the rules so they have to buy a new toilet...

Seems harsh, but I agree composting toilets should be used for composting. Those that complain about emptying a cassette "because it makes them heave" probably need to 'man' or 'woman' up, it takes about 5 minutes if done properly.  But heck its going to have been an expensive decision. 

 

I think somebody else here suggested a charge similar to the pump out charge, but a dedicated compost bin will likely fill up with anything but.   I think Peter and others like him might suddenly be asked if they room for more, which I doubt very much they would be willing to accept. I know I wouldnt!    

 

 

 

 

Edited February 15, 2021 by Chagall

[IanD]

17 minutes ago, Chagall said:

Seems harsh, but I agree composting toilets should be used for composting. Those that complain about emptying a cassette "because it makes them heave" probably need to 'man' or 'woman' up, it takes about 5 minutes if done properly.  But heck its going to have been an expensive decision. 

 

I think somebody else here suggested a charge similar to the pump out charge, but a dedicated compost bin will likely fill up with anything but.   I think Peter and others like him might suddenly be asked if they room for more, which I doubt very much they would be willing to accept. I know I wouldnt!    

 

 

 

 

A charge still only works if somebody puts the infrastructure in place, and like pumpouts this is more likely to be boatyards/marinas than CaRT -- and it's probably more unpleasant/difficult for them to deal with, so you'd expect the charge to be higher, especially if there are only a small number of boats using it.

[Chagall]

How legal or practical would it be to occasionally use an incinerator on the towpath?     (apart from the obvious need to store it but I suppose a smaller one could be made, even something like an old stove) It could be used as barbecue in the summer. A whole new meaning to twice cooked food.

 

 

 

Edit to add:  I heartily suggest you dont google 'burning poo' ?

Edited February 15, 2021 by Chagall
I really need to stop thinking about this topic now!

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

It's not much different to the dog mess problem, is it? Plenty of dog owners just chuck the bag into the nearest tree or hang it on the fence. Even if the rare one or two put it in a bin, it's still just another example of an individual deciding the results of his action (eating, or dog owning) is someone else's problem. "They" will clear it up. Only now the money for "them" has run out.

Just seen a pile in my garden today, we live on the junction of two footpaths and the lane

1 hour ago, Loddon said:

Only on the tidal bit, not above Teddington Weir.

What about down your way, The Great Ouse, I don't know about the Nene?

[GUMPY]

8 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

 

What about down your way, The Great Ouse, I don't know about the Nene?

Perfectly legal to have a sea toilet on both rivers, If I hadn't got a Thetford I would have one.

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Chagall said:

How legal or practical would it be to occasionally use an incinerator on the towpath?     (apart from the obvious need to store it but I suppose a smaller one could be made, even something like an old stove) It could be used as barbecue in the summer. A whole new meaning to twice cooked food.

 

 

 

Edit to add:  I heartily suggest you dont google 'burning poo' ?

Burning the poo certainly isn't green, which is supposed to be one of the reasons for using a composting toilet...

[tree monkey]

2 minutes ago, IanD said:

Burning the poo certainly isn't green, which is supposed to be one of the reasons for using a composting toilet...

There are attempts by peeps to compact and dry brickettes of poo to burn in the winter

[IanD]

Just now, tree monkey said:

There are attempts by peeps to compact and dry brickettes of poo to burn in the winter

That's only green if it replaces burning fossil fuels for heating (which the world is trying to move away from), but it still causes CO2 emissions.

 

Just incinerating it and not using the heat is a terrible idea, this probably makes a composting toilet even less green than conventional ones...

 

Basically, a composting toilet is a good green idea if you use it to make compost. As the majority of boaters are using them today, it's a bad non-green waste disposal nightmare ?

[Chagall]

 

7 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

There are attempts by peeps to compact and dry brickettes of poo to burn in the winter

An interesting study here ... https://www.treehugger.com/kenya-fecal-briquettes-are-serving-clean-cooking-fuel-4857062

[tree monkey]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

That's only green if it replaces burning fossil fuels for heating (which the world is trying to move away from), but it still causes CO2 emissions.

 

Just incinerating it and not using the heat is a terrible idea, this probably makes a composting toilet even less green than conventional ones...

 

Basically, a composting toilet is a good green idea if you use it to make compost. As the majority of boaters are using them today, it's a bad non-green waste disposal nightmare ?

I agree, if someone has the dedication to use their waste to replace equivalent coal or wood fair play but it's a serious level of dedication 

I actually think compost bogs properly used are a great idea, dumping dried poo in the bins isn't proper use

[ditchcrawler]

12 minutes ago, Chagall said:

 

An interesting study here ... https://www.treehugger.com/kenya-fecal-briquettes-are-serving-clean-cooking-fuel-4857062

Some of the comments are interesting 

[IanD]

26 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

I agree, if someone has the dedication to use their waste to replace equivalent coal or wood fair play but it's a serious level of dedication 

I actually think compost bogs properly used are a great idea, dumping dried poo in the bins isn't proper use

Which is what CaRT think too...

[Nightwatch]

I like the idea of compost toilets. They make sense. That is, until living on a boat you have the issue of dumping the contents, my thoughts before recent announcements. However for a nice bit of kit for nearly £900 does swing me back to pumpout or cassette.

[Alan de Enfield]

 

There is always the 4th option

 

The incinerator toilet but horrendously expensive in either gas or electric.

 

LeeSan Marine Sanitation - Cinderella Incinerator Toilets

 

Uses 150Ah (out of 12v batteries via an inverter) per 'flush' Cost £3900

 

Uses 110g of propane per 'flush' = 118 flushes per 13kg gas cylinder Cost £4100

Edited February 15, 2021 by Alan de Enfield