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11 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Never heard that before, do you have any reference, or, is it simply RCD compliance ? (which doesn't apply to commercial boats)

 

11 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Never heard that before, do you have any reference, or, is it simply RCD compliance ? (which doesn't apply to commercial boats)

I remember reading that fishing boats above a certain size must comply, but I don’t remember where I saw it

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Blimey... Thanks for all the help chaps, I really mean that.

 

But it really shouldn't be this difficult to buy a replacement gas regulator and be sure that it's fully compliant and safe for installation on a boat.

 

Isn't this something that hundreds of boaters are changing every year? I'm probably delving into it too deeply, but when you read "not for installation on boats" in the regulator instructions it can't help but create some concerns.

 

Edit: The place that sold me the regulators is saying that only 30mbar regulators should be installed on boats!

Edited by blackrose
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2 hours ago, nicknorman said:

 

A36F92AF-A770-490C-BFC9-A1028C9598F1.png.7de58590a59dab245a98977e499ef25b.png
 

I can't see many narrow boat installations complying with 5.6. The gas locker would need to be a good bit taller than most if the regulator is to be mounted entirely above the cylinder valve with the flexible between the two rising continuously.

Edited by David Mack
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32 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

 

I remember reading that fishing boats above a certain size must comply, but I don’t remember where I saw it

Commercial.

 

MCA specifications are very, very comprehensive & detailed, (even down to the number of sea-sickness tablets to be held in the 1st aid kit in the liferaft).

 

 

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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1 hour ago, blackrose said:

Blimey... Thanks for all the help chaps, I really mean that.

 

But it really shouldn't be this difficult to buy a replacement gas regulator and be sure that it's fully compliant and safe for installation on a boat.

 

Isn't this something that hundreds of boaters are changing every year? I'm probably delving into it too deeply, but when you read "not for installation on boats" in the regulator instructions it can't help but create some concerns.

 

Edit: The place that sold me the regulators is saying that only 30mbar regulators should be installed on boats!

That last sentence is rubbish. Well, butane (blue) regulators are set at 30mB, but propane must be 37mB. You can’t (or shouldn’t) use a 30mB regulator for Propane.

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4 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

You can’t (or shouldn’t) use a 30mB regulator for Propane.

 

The marine gas regulator in the gasproducts link above is 30mB and claims to be suitable for both butane and propane.

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9 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

That last sentence is rubbish. Well, butane (blue) regulators are set at 30mB, but propane must be 37mB. You can’t (or shouldn’t) use a 30mB regulator for Propane.

Yes, that's right, but they were saying that only butane is recommended for boats. The trouble is that everyone seems to have a different understanding of the rules.

 

This is what he said when I said most canal boats use 37mbar regulators with propane. I don't think he's correct but it demonstrates the levels of confusion and misunderstanding out there. Why on earth isn't there clear and concise advice from BSS?

 

Yes I know most of our customers use 37mb appliances (even on boats), but the new gas regulations state 30mb maximum for both boats and also now for motor homes, it is causing a bit of confusion.

There are some useful forums around that discuss the 30mb / 37mb issue that never seem to reach a conclusion.

I have noticed that on all of our suppliers latest catalogues all the marine spec regs are fixed at 30mb.

They also seem to have different regulators for freshwater and seawater as the gas regs have now been split into two types of boat.

It does seem a minefield

Edited by blackrose
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9 minutes ago, blackrose said:

19% ?

No, viscosity doesn’t work like that. If you double the pressure, you don’t double the flow rate.
 

But back to the point about the regulations, they might possibly apply to new boats (though I doubt it) but certainly not to replacing a regulator on an existing system. And the most important point is what the appliance manufacturer specifies. If they say 37mB, that is what you must supply it with.

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Browsing the internet reveals that there is a new(ish) European standard that uses 30mB as a compromise for both Butane and Propane, so one regulator works with either gas. I don’t think it is mandatory to use that for new boats, it’s just that it is allowed. And it’s not retrospective. Anyway, haven’t we left the EU now?

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6 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

No, viscosity doesn’t work like that. If you double the pressure, you don’t double the flow rate.
 

 

Ok, but you haven't told us how it does work and what the answer is.

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2 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

What the appliance manufacturer specifies. If they say 37mB, that is what you must supply it with.

That is true  but many, if not most LPG appliances are designed/jetted  to burn either propane at 37 mB or butane at 30 mg.  So , with pedant hat firmly jammed over ears, Nick's statement  should read "If they say 37 mB for propane that is what you must supply it with"

N

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3 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Browsing the internet reveals that there is a new(ish) European standard that uses 30mB as a compromise for both Butane and Propane, so one regulator works with either gas. I don’t think it is mandatory to use that for new boats, it’s just that it is allowed. And it’s not retrospective. Anyway, haven’t we left the EU now?

Yes, but we haven't completely abandoned European standards.

Edited by blackrose
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Just now, blackrose said:

 

Ok, but you haven't told us how it does work and what the answer is.

That’s coz I’m not clever enough!

1 minute ago, BEngo said:

That is true  but many, if not most LPG appliances are designed/jetted  to burn either propane at 37 mB or butane at 30 mg.  So , with pedant hat firmly jammed over ears, Nick's statement  should read "If they say 37 mB for propane that is what you must supply it with"

N

Agreed.

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On 08/01/2021 at 20:48, blackrose said:

The main 90 deg turn isolator seems to have gone quite stiff as it hasn't been opened in a while and it feels a bit spongy at either end of the turn.

The article mentions an oily residue found in the gas lines of remote regulator setups - perhaps this has caused your 90 deg turn isolator to go spongy and stiff? I know they have a nylon type plastic seal, which could be affected? 

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I've got 30, 37mb and 50 mb propane regs and swap them about onto various non boat gas appliances. I also regularly swap between butane & propane.  I find no perceptible difference between the different pressure regulators.  In most cases it's hard to tell the difference between running something on butane or propane but i use propane if I need maximum heat output. 

 

I've also got 1 bar  propane but they are for really powerful burners definitely not for boat use! 

 

It's worth remembering that mb means millibar or thousandths of a bar (about 15psi) so not much pressure difference in reality 

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14 minutes ago, jonathanA said:

In most cases it's hard to tell the difference between running something on butane or propane but i use propane if I need maximum heat output. 

Butane has about 9% more energy content, with 27.5MJ/L versus 25.3 MJ/L for Propane. ... But because Propane has less density, you get more litres per kilogram, with the difference more than offsetting the lower MJ/L energy content value.

 

So actually, Butane gives you more heat (per litre used) than Propane.

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2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

So actually, Butane gives you more heat (per litre used) than Propane.

 

Which is why butane is (was) run at lower pressure, and hence lower flow rate through the appliance jets, to even up the heat outputs.

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46 minutes ago, alistair1537 said:

The article mentions an oily residue found in the gas lines of remote regulator setups - perhaps this has caused your 90 deg turn isolator to go spongy and stiff? I know they have a nylon type plastic seal, which could be affected? 

I'll check it once I replace the regulators and isolators. My regulators are vertically mounted above the height of the gas bottles (just). I'll report back but that might be a while as I don't intend to do the job until we have a bit of warmer, drier weather and I can empty out and sit in the gas locker in comfort.

Edited by blackrose
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On 16/01/2021 at 13:19, blackrose said:

 

https://www.bes.co.uk/lpg-manual-changeover-kit-propane-12679/

 

I actually wouldn't be surprised if this BES one is exactly the same as the ones I've just bought, just more expensive.

 

 

I was right. I've just had an email back from BES and that kit is Continental brand (made in India) exactly the same as the ones I bought from eBay. The only difference is the price! (£56 on BES +VAT & delivery compared to £41 on eBay all inc.)

 

If BES are selling them then I'll assume the quality is ok and install them.

Edited by blackrose
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On 16/01/2021 at 20:06, David Mack said:

 

Which is why butane is (was) run at lower pressure, and hence lower flow rate through the appliance jets, to even up the heat outputs.

And yet butane cylinders are 15kg as opposed to 13kg for propane. Is there a corresponding price difference in refills?

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13 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

And yet butane cylinders are 15kg as opposed to 13kg for propane. Is there a corresponding price difference in refills?

Then we are into calorific value per volume, vs calorific value per mass.

 

If it is priced by volume — in litres — the butane has about 9% more energy content, with 27.5MJ/L versus 25.3 MJ/L for propane.

However, if it is sold by weight — in kilograms — then propane has about 5% more energy content, with 49.58MJ/kg versus 47.39 MJ/kg for butane.

Edited by nicknorman
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