Boat Wiring Diagrams

[jon.h]

Hi all,

 

I've been working on my boat and thought it a wise decision to touch base to benefit from anyone else's advice. I have the following setup:

 

Shore Connection Socket

(Charges batteries from 220v shore )

3 Pin 220v Shore Connection  > 50A Fused Isolator Switch > Automatic Inverter/ Charger > Consumer Unit > the rest of the boat. 

 

220v Solar PV to Leisure Batteries

(Powers 12v leisure batteries from solar panel energy)

215w Solar Panel > MPPT Charge Controller > Automatic Inverter/Charger > Inline Battery Fuse > 2 x 12v Batteries in Parallel.

 

12v Battery Connection

(Powers electrics when not plugged into a shore connection):

 

2 x 12v Batteries in Parallel > Inline Battery Fuse > Automatic Inverter/Charger > Consumer Unit > to the rest of the boat.

 

Edited August 31, 2020 by jon.h

[TheBiscuits]

Not sure what your question is, but the solar shouldn't be connected to the combi inverter/charger as per your list.

 

42 minutes ago, jon.h said:

215w Solar Panel > MPPT Charge Controller > Automatic Inverter/Charger > Inline Battery Fuse > 2 x 12v Batteries in Parallel.

 

Should read

 

215w Solar Panel > MPPT Charge Controller > Inline Battery Fuse > 2 x 12v Batteries in Parallel

[Tony Brooks]

53 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

Not sure what your question is, but the solar shouldn't be connected to the combi inverter/charger as per your list.

 

 

Should read

 

215w Solar Panel > MPPT Charge Controller > Inline Battery Fuse > 2 x 12v Batteries in Parallel

 

Are you sure as the OP does not make it clear where he has connected to solar on the inverter. As long as he fits a suitable fuse at the battery end of the solar charge wiring I don't see why the big, thick inverter cables can't be utilised as the battery connection point. Not conventional I agree but I can't see anything electrically wrong with it.

[TheBiscuits]

2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Are you sure as the OP does not make it clear where he has connected to solar on the inverter. As long as he fits a suitable fuse at the battery end of the solar charge wiring I don't see why the big, thick inverter cables can't be utilised as the battery connection point. Not conventional I agree but I can't see anything electrically wrong with it.

 

Badly phrased perhaps.  I agree that having the solar connected there is fine, but I read it as thinking the battery side of the MPPT needed to go via the charger.

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, TheBiscuits said:

 

Badly phrased perhaps.  I agree that having the solar connected there is fine, but I read it as thinking the battery side of the MPPT needed to go via the charger.

Easy to do when the info is not very specific.

[TheBiscuits]

 

I also wonder what power of inverter he's intending to run off 2 leisure batteries.

[WotEver]

21 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Are you sure as the OP does not make it clear where he has connected to solar on the inverter. As long as he fits a suitable fuse at the battery end of the solar charge wiring I don't see why the big, thick inverter cables can't be utilised as the battery connection point. Not conventional I agree but I can't see anything electrically wrong with it.

However, he appears to have done the same with the 12V distribution (gone via the inverter cables) and I’m not seeing an isolator mentioned anywhere. 
 

Also no mention of where the alternator charging cable is fed, nor any provision of a split charging arrangement. 
 

OP, See if this helps:

[jon.h]

I'm only catching up now on the responses, sorry I did a poor job of asking for someone to check out the setup. I appreciate the feedback.

 

1.) So not MPPT to the inverter but instead to the Inline Battery Fuse and then the 2 x 12v batteries in Parallel to charge the batteries directly.

 

I suppose there could be more than one way to do it but I'd rather have the inverter/charger connected to the batteries on a separate circuit, it makes more sense.

 

2.) @WotEver I didn't quite understand what you meant by alternator cable? I don't have an onboard engine. I have an outboard which is currently hooked up to one of the batteries (which are connected in parallel). There is also a battery isolator on the positive terminal. Would you suggest I connect the alternator to the parallel connection (+ of one and - of the other) or keep it on the one battery?

 

Please correct me if I'm missing something, still learning, trying to learn the theory before the practice to avoid having "my wires crossed"(first time I got to use that phrase in the right context).

 

I have decided to go for an 800w-1000w inverter/charger. Still looking for an affordable but reliable option. This is the one I'm currently looking at:

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/333177368808

 

Does anyone know anything about it? Is it a reliable product? I can't seem to find many reviews about it. Also can't seem to understand how to work out how much power will be lost just by using the inverter. Ideally I'd like something efficient.

 

For your reference this is a list of all demand on power:

 

1.) Lighting circuit (12v): from the MPPT load > 12v mini 7amp fuse > 12v lighting (2-4watt LED bulbs).

 

2.) Cool box (220v though can connect on 12v too).

 

3.) 900-1900w electric duct heater.

 

4.) Pressure king pro - electric pressure cooker (220v but only used 20-30 mins a day)

 

5.) 240v sockets to charge my laptop when working.

 

6.) Water pump (auto-on/off) for kitchenette and bathroom taps (not used much).

 

Based on this level of demand, I estimated a 800-1000w inverter/charger would be suitable providing it was efficient. Can anyone confirm that?

 

Most of the time I'll have the shore connection but I'd like to make sure I can use my laptop for work. 

 

Also another question that pops into mind is, "Is there a way to put an alarm on the batteries so that when they drop to the minimum level discharge I know that I need to turn it all off?" e.g. 50% discharge.

 

I know there's a million points here, hopefully some of you can advise accordingly.  I look forward to hearing what everyone thinks. Many thanks

 

Jonathan

 

 

Edited September 2, 2020 by jon.h

[DandV]

If you have an immersion heater in your calorifier it is wise to take its feed prior to the combi  inverter charger otherwise you could happily turn on electric water heating when plugged in, but find you have some very flat leisure batteries, if for some reason you lose shore power, and the combi switches over to provide battery power to the immersion heater until all the lights go out.

Been there done that. Caught it the second time when I heard the cooling fan in the Inverter unexpectedly start up.

There was no third time, rearranged the mains circuitry as described above. 

If your coolbox is a proper one with a refrigeration compressor then remember the starting load is several times the running load. 

I would be concerned that an inverter that small is grunty enough to kick start the fridge. An inverter nearly large enough, is like kicking a rugby goal almost high enough to clear the bar, useless.

Some of your electronics will undoubtedly be fussy on the quality of the AC wave form so buying anything other then a quality full size wave inverter is unwise.

 

 

Edited September 2, 2020 by DandV

[WotEver]

2 hours ago, jon.h said:

I didn't quite understand what you meant by alternator cable? I don't have an onboard engine. I have an outboard which is currently hooked up to one of the batteries (which are connected in parallel). There is also a battery isolator on the positive terminal. Would you suggest I connect the alternator to the parallel connection (+ of one and - of the other) or keep it on the one battery?

The BSS states that the charging cable from the outboard must connect to the boat side of the isolation switch

[Rob-M]

Be careful running the coolbox from your batteries as they can be a heavy drain.

[DandV]

3 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

Be careful running the coolbox from your batteries as they can be a heavy drain.

Perhaps best to take the feed off for the socket for the coolbox prior to the combi. No mains no coolbox power.

[jenevers]

.

2 hours ago, DandV said:

If you have an immersion heater in your calorifier it is wise to take its feed prior to the combi  inverter charger otherwise you could happily turn on electric water heating when plugged in, but find you have some very flat leisure batteries,

 

 

Hmm. All my 230v appliances are powered through my 2K inverter, unless I'm running the generator. I sometimes turn on the 1K immersion heater when I'm on the move, assuming my Leece-Neville 160 amp alternator is big enough to keep the batteries topped up

Edited September 2, 2020 by jenevers

[Tony Brooks]

Charging from an outboard plus the electrical loads you list will almost certainly fatten your batteries within hours and destroy them in days or a very few weeks. Even modern outboards of a size suitable for inland use rarely  have more then a 15 to 20 amp out put and for the fist tree to four hours you can only assume about half of this and getting less and less by the hour. Its to do with how lead acid batteries accept charge.

 

So what is the  outboard's maximum charge rate in amps.

 

Your duct heater will draw up to 190 amps so assuming 2 X 110 Ah batteries from fully charged you shoudl turn it off in under an hour and then spend the next 10 hours or so trying to fully charge the, In under two hours the batteries will be flat and well on the way to being destroyed.

 

That heater at least should only be used on a shore line. I suspect the same shoudl apply to the cool box and pressure cooker.

 

Divide the wattage by 10 to see how many amps your mains stuff will demand from the batteries via an inverter.

 

I would suggest you stop your plans right now and do your power/energy audit and some charge time calculations before you spend money on equipment that will be unusable while away from a shoreline and will encourage you to destroy your batteries in short order.  Running any sort of heating device from batteries is best thought of as not possible for most boaters unless they have very large alternators and run the engine when using the devices or a hefty generator.

 

 

3 minutes ago, jenevers said:

.

Hmm. All my 230v appliances are powered through my 2K inverter, unless I'm running the generator. I sometimes turn on the 1K immersion heater when I'm on the move, assuming my Leece-Neville 160 amp alternator is big enough to keep the batteries topped up

 

Yes, but you understand the issues, probably have some form of battery monitoring and an alternator at least 10 times the output of the OP's. The OP clearly has little understanding it seems.

[jenevers]

15 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

  Running any sort of heating device from batteries is best thought of as not possible for most boaters unless they have very large alternators and run the engine when using the devices or a hefty generator.

 

 

 

Yes, but you understand the issues, probably have some form of battery monitoring and an alternator at least 10 times the output of the OP's. The OP clearly has little understanding it seems.

Thanks for the reassurance?

Edited September 2, 2020 by jenevers

[Tony Brooks]

Just had a look at the add for that inverter charger and am not impressed. I can see no continuous or surge rating for the AC output but I seems to state 500VA and in anther place 300 watts VA adjusted for power factor = watts so at a guess for power factors about 360 watts. That is about one third of what you need for the heater on minimum setting.

 

What's the wattage for the electric pressure cooker, I doubt 300 watts will be enough for it.

 

For best life you shoudl not regularly discharge your batteries below about 12.2 volts. The charge will not charge batteries below 11 volts if I read the specs correctly yet the inverter will not shut down until 10.5 volts. That's good - the inverter flattens the batteries to a level at which the charger will not recharge them.

 

If you insist on electric heating from batteries you need a much higher output inverter, a load more batteries and, most importantly, much higher output charging sources. Its got to be about 2kW minimum just for the heater. Get a car adaptor for your laptop and run it from 12V. If you want a pressure cooker get a normal one a put it on the gas stove.

 

The specs for the charger output seem confusing and if we take the headline 10 amps I doubt it will ever recharge the batteries when using the heating unless you wired things so the heater ran from the landline and was not connected to the charger.

 

I think that your ideas about cost of a suitable inverter-charger is unrealistic, think start at about £2000.

 

 

[james46]

Hi if you have inverter charger i take it that it charges the batterys when your plugged in to a shoreline and also what the benefit of this if you have solar panels that charge your batterys ive got 12v appliances so is there much benefit to having an inverter thanks james 

[Chewbacka]

29 minutes ago, james46 said:

Hi if you have inverter charger i take it that it charges the batterys when your plugged in to a shoreline and also what the benefit of this if you have solar panels that charge your batterys ive got 12v appliances so is there much benefit to having an inverter thanks james 

Unless you are an unbelievably low power user then i doubt you will be able to charge your batteries using only solar panels in winter.  However if you are plugged into a shore line supply - so you can use your charger - then you will never have flat batteries.

If you have nothing that uses 240v (apart from a charger on shore power) then you don't need an inverter as you have nothing to power.

 

It would help if you made it clear if you will be mainly connected to shore power or mainly 'out and about', then you could be advised better.

[james46]

6 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

Unless you are an unbelievably low power user then i doubt you will be able to charge your batteries using only solar panels in winter.  However if you are plugged into a shore line supply - so you can use your charger - then you will never have flat batteries.

If you have nothing that uses 240v (apart from a charger on shore power) then you don't need an inverter as you have nothing to power.

 

It would help if you made it clear if you will be mainly connected to shore power or mainly 'out and about', then you could be advised better.

Hi im looking to eventually be on a mooring with shorepower but ill will get out and about here and there i was going to but a couple of decent solar panels so it will hopefully get me through winter if im out and about it just seems better to use 12v if your out and about over using 240v through an inverter apparently it drains yiur batterys quicker using an inverter 

[Chewbacka]

24 minutes ago, james46 said:

Hi im looking to eventually be on a mooring with shorepower but ill will get out and about here and there i was going to but a couple of decent solar panels so it will hopefully get me through winter if im out and about it just seems better to use 12v if your out and about over using 240v through an inverter apparently it drains yiur batterys quicker using an inverter 

You won't correctly charge your batteries with a 'couple of decent solar panels' in winter.

If you fail to charge your batteries correctly, they will not last long - maybe just a few weeks.  Replacement is expensive.

 

You are right that an inverter will drain your batteries.  An inverter being an electronic device will use power to power itself which is between a few amp hours per day (if it has an effective sleep mode and isn't used much) to maybe 50 amp hours per day if 'on' all the time, has a large capability (a few kW) and by design is not very efficient.  Most are somewhere in between.  Generally the more efficient an inverter the more it costs. Of course any load on the inverter is not included in my figures above.

 

So if you really don't have any 220v appliances and everything you use is ok on 12v, then you don't need an inverter. 

 

You need to be realistic in calculating your daily power consumption, and then work out how to recharge your batteries.

Don't expect much more than 10% of your solar panels rated output during daylight hours on a cloudy winters day.

 

Added - there are a number of posts about charging batteries and solar panels in winter, use the search function above if you want to know more.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Chewbacka

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Chewbacka said:

Added - there are a number of posts about charging batteries and solar panels in winter, use the search function above if you want to know more.

 

To save James using the search function, in my experience solar doesn't charge the batteries in winter. At All. 

 

Hope that helps. 

[blackrose]

7 hours ago, MtB said:

 

To save James using the search function, in my experience solar doesn't charge the batteries in winter. At All. 

 

Hope that helps. 

 

Experiences may differ of course, as do panels, controllers and solar setups. Last winter I was about 80% on panels / 20% on shore power, living aboard. Solar was definitely charging the batteries.

[Puffling]

If @james46's "decent pair" of solar panels amount to 500W or more he's likely to have some solar charging. Go above 750W (a couple of 375W panels, perhaps) and he'll be able to power lights and water pumps, and possibly even run a few things from his inverter through the winter.

Edited August 25, 2023 by Puffling

[james46]

Thanks for all the replys that helps me a lot so when yiu have a charger are they generally hard wired in to the shoreline or do you just plug them in thanks james 

[Puffling]

15 minutes ago, james46 said:

Thanks for all the replys that helps me a lot so when yiu have a charger are they generally hard wired in to the shoreline or do you just plug them in thanks james 

I have mine to be plugged in either to a blue, round pin connector or a standard 13A socket. I've only stayed in a marina a couple of times and use the charger with my generator mostly.

But since I installed solar power last summer I've not had to do any generator charging. Good to have it as a backup, though.

 

ETA: You might be interested in these panels. Good price and will fit on a narrowboat roof 😆

Edited August 25, 2023 by Puffling