Jump to content
Strawberry Orange Banana Lime Leaf Slate Sky Blueberry Grape Watermelon Chocolate Marble
Strawberry Orange Banana Lime Leaf Slate Sky Blueberry Grape Watermelon Chocolate Marble

Featured Posts

On 22/07/2020 at 19:21, NB DW said:

I'm not challenging the above but I'm curious over what it's referencing.  Have you a link to anything I could read?

Surely it can't include narrowboats?  I doubt anyone of them would be ready in fewer the 5 years to sell boats with zero-emission capable technology.

 

Fingers crossed that technology massively improved by 2035.  Having visited a boat builder yesterday were I was told a Beta hybrid setup would cost £25K+, and yet obviously it's still reliant on diesel!  Some of the smaller, new boats I looked at don't have especially large engine bays and would have no chance of accommodating a hybrid set up and battery bank.

If I've read that correctly new boats will have to be designed to be capable of using zero emissions technology by 2025. I'm no expert but I'd have thought it would not be beyond the wit of man(kind) to sort something out in 5 years. Maybe batteries in the bilge. Maybe some other cunning ruse.

  • Greenie 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, George and Dragon said:

If I've read that correctly new boats will have to be designed to be capable of using zero emissions technology by 2025. I'm no expert but I'd have thought it would not be beyond the wit of man(kind) to sort something out in 5 years. Maybe batteries in the bilge. Maybe some other cunning ruse.

The boats isn't the problem. Finding the cash for CRT to  build out the charging point certainly is.

 

MP

  • Greenie 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Thomas C King said:

I don't really understand all this talk of using a second tank etc. Criminals just use cat litter to extract the red dye, or so I hear.

The folks at The Revenue have a sneaky trick up their sleeve - there's a chemical marker in the stull to catchj dishonest folks....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

The folks at The Revenue have a sneaky trick up their sleeve - there's a chemical marker in the stull to catchj dishonest folks....

Interesting, wonder if anyone has been caught out after genuinely believing they were buying non-red diesel.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Thomas C King said:

Interesting, wonder if anyone has been caught out after genuinely believing they were buying non-red diesel.

I doubt :

 

1) Any 'petrol station' would be selling scrubbed red diesel, and

2) No one buying some from the 'the back of a van' is going to genuinely believe they were buying non-red diesel.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, MoominPapa said:

The boats isn't the problem. Finding the cash for CRT to  build out the charging point certainly is.

 

MP

Most boat engines (nowadays) are essentially marinised truck engines. The viability of electric for boats is likely to be the date for viability for trucks plus a couple years for the specialists to catch up with the necessary adaptations. (And no I don't want to be told that we can or should only cruise for three hours a day and that we cannot stay put for up to 14 days and so must always be on the move, spending much each day finding a vacant charging point or hibernating until the sun comes out)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Mike Todd said:

Most boat engines (nowadays) are essentially marinised truck engines. The viability of electric for boats is likely to be the date for viability for trucks plus a couple years for the specialists to catch up with the necessary adaptations. (And no I don't want to be told that we can or should only cruise for three hours a day and that we cannot stay put for up to 14 days and so must always be on the move, spending much each day finding a vacant charging point or hibernating until the sun comes out)

In terms of power, they're more like small cars, superminis at best. The constraints on battery size and weight are much easier than for a car, however. If you can build and charge a 50 mile range shopping runabout Nissan Micra equivalent, a narrowboat that can cruise for a day between charges is a piece of piss, and recharging overnight similarly so as long as the moorings have 16A power, or if you still want to stop in the middle of nowhere, then you'll need fast chargers at water points that can fill the batteries in roughly the same time it takes to fill the water tank. That's standard automotive technology too. Really, the only unsolved (and maybe insoluble) problem is getting someone to stump up for all the charging points.

 

MP.

  • Greenie 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, MoominPapa said:

In terms of power, they're more like small cars, superminis at best. The constraints on battery size and weight are much easier than for a car, however. If you can build and charge a 50 mile range shopping runabout Nissan Micra equivalent, a narrowboat that can cruise for a day between charges is a piece of piss, and recharging overnight similarly so as long as the moorings have 16A power, or if you still want to stop in the middle of nowhere, then you'll need fast chargers at water points that can fill the batteries in roughly the same time it takes to fill the water tank. That's standard automotive technology too. Really, the only unsolved (and maybe insoluble) problem is getting someone to stump up for all the charging points.

 

MP.

It is really the same case as with cars, just boats are way behind in the timescale.  Electric car charge points are starting to get more numerous, during lockdown one was installed at the marina for example. I don't really understand who pays for their installation though, and do you get charged when as a car owner you use one?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, john6767 said:

It is really the same case as with cars, just boats are way behind in the timescale.  Electric car charge points are starting to get more numerous, during lockdown one was installed at the marina for example. I don't really understand who pays for their installation though, and do you get charged when as a car owner you use one?

I'd like to see a car charging point at our marina. I believe they usually sell electrons at slightly above the normal tariff to recoup the cost of installation and maintenance. For most EVs that still makes the cost per mile very competitive against diesel or petrol.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, George and Dragon said:

 For most EVs that still makes the cost per mile very competitive against diesel or petrol.

Not if if you're doing a long journey and have to put up for the night in hotel so you can recharge the batteries.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, MoominPapa said:

In terms of power, they're more like small cars, superminis at best. The constraints on battery size and weight are much easier than for a car, however. If you can build and charge a 50 mile range shopping runabout Nissan Micra equivalent, a narrowboat that can cruise for a day between charges is a piece of piss, and recharging overnight similarly so as long as the moorings have 16A power, or if you still want to stop in the middle of nowhere, then you'll need fast chargers at water points that can fill the batteries in roughly the same time it takes to fill the water tank. That's standard automotive technology too. Really, the only unsolved (and maybe insoluble) problem is getting someone to stump up for all the charging points.

 

MP.

If it were that simple then marinised car engines would be the norm and potentially less expensive. In reality, the demands of a boat are quite different which operate in a different environment.

 

Also need to remember that the main engine (currently) fulfils two other functions at least (and the red diesel debate recognises that), 

 

As it stands, four leisure batteries can just about cope with the overnight demands of a modern nb (I am discounting the option of imposing hair shirts all round, even if some claim that is inevitable) If a boat moors at the end of its range it is going to have a pretty miserable overnight stop. Further, the currently 'successful' applications all are based on a return to base overnight which largely excludes a continued cruising with longer stops (< 14 days!)

 

We are a long way from having serviced moorings at close intervals along the network and I suspect that they are well away from economic viability (unless external cost parameters change) The chargoing scenario you describe may well be technically possible but I doubt it is affordable. (I am very much against making changes that are great for the comfotable and hard for the uncomfortable parts of society)

 

Almost all major systemic shifts in activity occur when folk see something different as better (however measured) Humans are not very good at re-electing governments that persist with austerity for all (they have to make sure it only falls on a minority!)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

If it were that simple then marinised car engines would be the norm and potentially less expensive. In reality, the demands of a boat are quite different which operate in a different environment.

 

Also need to remember that the main engine (currently) fulfils two other functions at least (and the red diesel debate recognises that), 

 

As it stands, four leisure batteries can just about cope with the overnight demands of a modern nb (I am discounting the option of imposing hair shirts all round, even if some claim that is inevitable) If a boat moors at the end of its range it is going to have a pretty miserable overnight stop. Further, the currently 'successful' applications all are based on a return to base overnight which largely excludes a continued cruising with longer stops (< 14 days!)

 

We are a long way from having serviced moorings at close intervals along the network and I suspect that they are well away from economic viability (unless external cost parameters change) The chargoing scenario you describe may well be technically possible but I doubt it is affordable. (I am very much against making changes that are great for the comfotable and hard for the uncomfortable parts of society)

 

Almost all major systemic shifts in activity occur when folk see something different as better (however measured) Humans are not very good at re-electing governments that persist with austerity for all (they have to make sure it only falls on a minority!)

I think we're furiously agreeing. The technology in the boat has already been solved well enough for cars - boats are easier because there's more room and more weight allowance for batteries, and the power requirements are lower. The technology for charging stations has also been solved. All this technology is going to get much cheaper on the back of massive scale-up for cars.  The difficulty is that build-out of electric points (16A or fast charge) around the canal is going to be expensive, even if it piggybacks on cheaper gear from road build-out (that's not going to be cheap either.) it's not clear where the cash for canal electric infrastructure could come from. 

 

Frankly, once you have a battery system and recharging infrastructure good enough for boat propulsion, domestic power is a solved problem. Even a smallish EV battery pack will keep lights+fridge+water-pump+TV+laptop going for weeks. there's also the advantage that it'lll be pretty easy to rip the engine out of most existing NBs and replace it with a motor and battery bank. There would be no need for fleet replacement, which is going to be necessary for cars.

 

The water point analogy is a good one: make a charge last as long as a tank of water, and a charge take as long as a water fill, and you just need a fast charge point at  each water point. If a charge lasts half as long as a tank of water, or takes twice as long, you need two charging points to each water point. It's a good way of roughly quantifying how much charging infrastructure will be required.

 

MP.

 

ETA: addressing your points about affordability and imposed shifts. They are good points, but not absolute ones. Inequality is always relative, and the base is always moving up. In developed countries you're not allowed to live in a hovel without running water and sanitation and haven't been for a hundred years. Society became organised so that even the worst off would have those facilities (and health care, and safe transport and law&order.) In the future I suspect the poverty be no more excuse for CO2 emission than it is today for persistently crapping at the bottom of the garden, and things will be organised so it's not necessary for even the poorest. Even if you don't believe that, it's certainly the case that burning oil is going to become a hobby for the rich and not a resort for the poor.

 

Edited by MoominPapa

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know that certain marinas like Shire Cruisers in Sowerby Bridge charge based on a percentage of propulsion. We've just found it easier to go to the local Red Diesel supplier and fill up the jetty cans. We filled up two weeks ago at 63p a litre. I'd assume that agricultural dealers aren't going anywhere even with this change.

 

Be interesting to see how they manage to make zero emission boats in the future. Can't imagine they'll be affordable.

  • Greenie 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, MoominPapa said:

it's not clear where the cash for canal electric infrastructure could come from. 

From boaters I'd imagine. Those currently living on boats because they can't afford to live anywhere else will just become numbers within the statistic for homeless people. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

From boaters I'd imagine. Those currently living on boats because they can't afford to live anywhere else will just become numbers within the statistic for homeless people. 

They can barely maintain the current canals, can't see how they'd ever get around to installing electrical infrastructure. Even if they doubled the license I don't see them managing it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Unicorn Stampede said:

They can barely maintain the current canals, can't see how they'd ever get around to installing electrical infrastructure. Even if they doubled the license I don't see them managing it.

C&RT are already paid by the utility companies for allowing them to run cables along the tow-paths, it is surely not beyond the wit of even C&RT to include a stipulation that as part of the agreement the power companies must put a 'charging unit' every (say) 5 miles.

 

From the C&RT annual Accounts

Utility and water development income.

Utility income is received from third parties who use the towpaths or bridges for their infrastructure cables for data, telecoms or electricity. Income from water development arises through extraction of water from the canal as well as discharges of excess water into the canal and the use of water for heating and cooling of buildings. Income in this area has increased by 5.3% in the year due to inflationary increases and additional utility agreements.

 

Utilities and Water Development £29.9m (2017/18: £28.4m)

 

Edited by Alan de Enfield

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, MoominPapa said:

I think we're furiously agreeing. The technology in the boat has already been solved well enough for cars - boats are easier because there's more room and more weight allowance for batteries, and the power requirements are lower. The technology for charging stations has also been solved. All this technology is going to get much cheaper on the back of massive scale-up for cars.  The difficulty is that build-out of electric points (16A or fast charge) around the canal is going to be expensive, even if it piggybacks on cheaper gear from road build-out (that's not going to be cheap either.) it's not clear where the cash for canal electric infrastructure could come from. 

 

Frankly, once you have a battery system and recharging infrastructure good enough for boat propulsion, domestic power is a solved problem. Even a smallish EV battery pack will keep lights+fridge+water-pump+TV+laptop going for weeks. there's also the advantage that it'lll be pretty easy to rip the engine out of most existing NBs and replace it with a motor and battery bank. There would be no need for fleet replacement, which is going to be necessary for cars.

 

The water point analogy is a good one: make a charge last as long as a tank of water, and a charge take as long as a water fill, and you just need a fast charge point at  each water point. If a charge lasts half as long as a tank of water, or takes twice as long, you need two charging points to each water point. It's a good way of roughly quantifying how much charging infrastructure will be required.

 

MP.

 

ETA: addressing your points about affordability and imposed shifts. They are good points, but not absolute ones. Inequality is always relative, and the base is always moving up. In developed countries you're not allowed to live in a hovel without running water and sanitation and haven't been for a hundred years. Society became organised so that even the worst off would have those facilities (and health care, and safe transport and law&order.) In the future I suspect the poverty be no more excuse for CO2 emission than it is today for persistently crapping at the bottom of the garden, and things will be organised so it's not necessary for even the poorest. Even if you don't believe that, it's certainly the case that burning oil is going to become a hobby for the rich and not a resort for the poor.

 

You are spot on that the technology is there...and my Tesla M3 is brilliant. Did the run from Jockland to Droitwich. 20 mins supercharge at Tebay gave me an additional 250 miles range for half the cost of diesel and I charge at a 16A commando socket in the marina at 14.7p per KWhr.

......but this is only possible on a car where they are selling nearly millions. All nbs are too bespoke and it would be impossible to get them all built in a way that supercharging would be possible.....unless a common system would be adopted. The BMS on the Tesla is a wonder to behold. The car is basically a computer that they have added wheels to rather than a car that they have tried to shoe horn a big battery bank into. My Tesla has 10 times the battery capacity of my boat which has 480Ahrs of Li's. At today's prices that would be £20,000 worth of batteries.

Canal boats are just so 'low tech' and I think they will remain so. In 200 years we will still have our boats of today, chugging along with loud, smelly  diesels just like we have the locks and bridges of 200 years ago. Some hope!!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

C&RT are already paid by the utility companies for allowing them to run cables along the tow-paths, it is surely not beyond the wit of even C&RT to include a stipulation that as part of the agreement the power companies must put a 'charging unit' every (say) 5 miles.

 

 

Which has a cost involved.  If the utiltiies have to provide charging points, they will pay CRT less royalties.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, MoominPapa said:

I think we're furiously agreeing. The technology in the boat has already been solved well enough for cars - boats are easier because there's more room and more weight allowance for batteries, and the power requirements are lower. The technology for charging stations has also been solved. All this technology is going to get much cheaper on the back of massive scale-up for cars.  The difficulty is that build-out of electric points (16A or fast charge) around the canal is going to be expensive, even if it piggybacks on cheaper gear from road build-out (that's not going to be cheap either.) it's not clear where the cash for canal electric infrastructure could come from. 

 

Frankly, once you have a battery system and recharging infrastructure good enough for boat propulsion, domestic power is a solved problem. Even a smallish EV battery pack will keep lights+fridge+water-pump+TV+laptop going for weeks. there's also the advantage that it'lll be pretty easy to rip the engine out of most existing NBs and replace it with a motor and battery bank. There would be no need for fleet replacement, which is going to be necessary for cars.

 

The water point analogy is a good one: make a charge last as long as a tank of water, and a charge take as long as a water fill, and you just need a fast charge point at  each water point. If a charge lasts half as long as a tank of water, or takes twice as long, you need two charging points to each water point. It's a good way of roughly quantifying how much charging infrastructure will be required.

 

MP.

 

ETA: addressing your points about affordability and imposed shifts. They are good points, but not absolute ones. Inequality is always relative, and the base is always moving up. In developed countries you're not allowed to live in a hovel without running water and sanitation and haven't been for a hundred years. Society became organised so that even the worst off would have those facilities (and health care, and safe transport and law&order.) In the future I suspect the poverty be no more excuse for CO2 emission than it is today for persistently crapping at the bottom of the garden, and things will be organised so it's not necessary for even the poorest. Even if you don't believe that, it's certainly the case that burning oil is going to become a hobby for the rich and not a resort for the poor.

 

I'm not sure your calculation works: most boats can go several days on one water fill but I have seen nothing yet to suggest that a battery system would not need every day. Hence it is not just the ratio of charging points to water points but also their geographical frequency. Care would be needed to ensure that boats do not become stuck if a charging point is out of order and they do not have enough to get to the next. I suspect RCR would not (at the moment anyway) cover a callout to charge your battery . . . (How fast could a mobile charger work?) At present, many of the canals with which I am familiar often have several days between diesel points.

 

I also suspect that your battery pack for cabin services is not anywhere near current usage. (Last for weeks?) The bigger consumers are fridge and freezer. If we moor fully charged (with 4 LA leisure batteries) we consume overnight around a third of the available capacity ie 50%. The daytime usage, if not using our engine, would probably be twice that. Perhaps 6 kwh for a single day.

 

Of course, electric propulsion is unlikely to be viable on LA batteries but what Ahr capacity are you assuming for an all electric boat? What Ahr's are you assuming for propulsion and what for cabin services?

 

I have not found much technical info readily available via Google but as far as I can see, I think that Tesla's car battery is around 75kwh. I think that  typical narrowboat engine runs at around 20 kwh, although allowance has to be made for not consuming power when not moving eg in a lock. This is important in spacing out charging points as cruising a level pound will take more power than a heavily locked one for a similar length of cruising day. However, locks do involve much more acceleration and deceleration so I am not sure of the overall effect. 

 

If we assume that canal boats are going to need a charge every day, at least when cruising - perhaps using solar for cabin services - then we can estimate the frequency of charging points needed. Let us say that a recharge takes 30 minutes. Assume that overnight mooring on a charge point is not permitted then recharging is confined to cruising hours, say 7 hours a day (but we need to be careful about worst cases ie short winter days) This means that one charging point can service 14 boats a day max but the need for reasonable availability reduces this by 30% - 60% (remember 100% utilisation = infinite wait time) So let us assume that charging points need to be provided 1 for every 7 boats passing by. 

 

Some canals are much busier than others but we need to see what works on the more popular routes. Foxton locks can process up to 40 boats a day. This suggests that there would need to be a charging point every 1/6 of a cruising day. Average distance, for us, is around 10 - 15 miles a day. Allowing for other factors that reduce usage etc that means suggests at least one charging point every mile - but could be somewhat bunched but as the need is daily then not much. 

 

But what about the economics? I assume that the restriction on mark up (as there is for normal marina supplies for domestic use) will not apply. Let us say that 1 kwh = 20p (is that right?) Then each charging point can sell £15 a go perhaps £100 a day. If the margin allowed is 20% then the direct profit per day is £20 or perhaps £4000 per year, allowing for substantial seasonal variation. The installation cost is even harder to estimate as most charging points would have to be well away from existing supplies (that's where the canals are!) The fixed installation for a heavy duty supply is?? but I suspect that it is going to be non-trivial. Land costs might be even higher. Let's assume £10K per charging point on average with a typical lifetime of two years (they are bound to be vulnerable as necessarily unsupervised - ever looked at the frequency that certain CaRT service points are vandalised?)

 

OK, so we are possibly getting within a viable envelope but at very high risk.

 

All very much 'wet finger in the air' stuff which I post in order for others with more specific facts can shoot down. But I have not yet seen any realistic costing of a system for a near 100% electric canal system and it is needed before one can be comfortable with a short term trend in this direction. High risk will imply high reward which means that the cost to the end user will be increased.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

I'm not sure your calculation works: most boats can go several days on one water fill but I have seen nothing yet to suggest that a battery system would not need every day. Hence it is not just the ratio of charging points to water points but also their geographical frequency. Care would be needed to ensure that boats do not become stuck if a charging point is out of order and they do not have enough to get to the next. I suspect RCR would not (at the moment anyway) cover a callout to charge your battery . . . (How fast could a mobile charger work?) At present, many of the canals with which I am familiar often have several days between diesel points.

The AA and RAC already carry last-ditch rechargers for EVs on their vans, I'm sure RCR could do the same.

6 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

 

I also suspect that your battery pack for cabin services is not anywhere near current usage. (Last for weeks?) The bigger consumers are fridge and freezer. If we moor fully charged (with 4 LA leisure batteries) we consume overnight around a third of the available capacity ie 50%. The daytime usage, if not using our engine, would probably be twice that. Perhaps 6 kwh for a single day.

We live onboard full time, and use 1-1.5KWh per day. We have fridge but no freezer and don't generally stint.

6 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

 

Of course, electric propulsion is unlikely to be viable on LA batteries but what Ahr capacity are you assuming for an all electric boat? What Ahr's are you assuming for propulsion and what for cabin services?

The electric boat Firecrest at https://nb-firecrest.co.uk/category/technical/ states that consumption for propulsion is 2-3Kw, so maybe 20Kwh for a eight hour day, or over two weeks of domestic use - my guess wasn't bad. Even a small EV has a battery in the 20-30KWh range, so a decent NB could have maybe 40KWh without any weight or size problems. Two days travel, or a month going nowhere. 

6 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

 

I have not found much technical info readily available via Google but as far as I can see, I think that Tesla's car battery is around 75kwh. I think that  typical narrowboat engine runs at around 20 kwh, although allowance has to be made for not consuming power when not moving eg in a lock. This is important in spacing out charging points as cruising a level pound will take more power than a heavily locked one for a similar length of cruising day. However, locks do involve much more acceleration and deceleration so I am not sure of the overall effect. 

See above data from Firecrest. The reality is 2-3 KW (not KWh) whilst on the move.

6 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

 

If we assume that canal boats are going to need a charge every day, at least when cruising - perhaps using solar for cabin services - then we can estimate the frequency of charging points needed. Let us say that a recharge takes 30 minutes. Assume that overnight mooring on a charge point is not permitted then recharging is confined to cruising hours, say 7 hours a day (but we need to be careful about worst cases ie short winter days) This means that one charging point can service 14 boats a day max but the need for reasonable availability reduces this by 30% - 60% (remember 100% utilisation = infinite wait time) So let us assume that charging points need to be provided 1 for every 7 boats passing by. 

A home-type charger is 7-14KW, so my 40KWh battery is going to take three hours to charge. Maybe for the water-point style service that's going to require rapid DC chargers of the type you see at motorway services. That creates an argument for 16A service on VMs for overnight charging as well. I think your guestimates are fairly good, and illustrate my point again - the difficult bit is the charging infrastucture. Having said that, if we're going to roll out charging infrastructure for EVs, the waterways are only a small extra step.

6 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

 

Some canals are much busier than others but we need to see what works on the more popular routes. Foxton locks can process up to 40 boats a day. This suggests that there would need to be a charging point every 1/6 of a cruising day. Average distance, for us, is around 10 - 15 miles a day. Allowing for other factors that reduce usage etc that means suggests at least one charging point every mile - but could be somewhat bunched but as the need is daily then not much. 

 

But what about the economics? I assume that the restriction on mark up (as there is for normal marina supplies for domestic use) will not apply. Let us say that 1 kwh = 20p (is that right?) Then each charging point can sell £15 a go perhaps £100 a day. If the margin allowed is 20% then the direct profit per day is £20 or perhaps £4000 per year, allowing for substantial seasonal variation. The installation cost is even harder to estimate as most charging points would have to be well away from existing supplies (that's where the canals are!) The fixed installation for a heavy duty supply is?? but I suspect that it is going to be non-trivial. Land costs might be even higher. Let's assume £10K per charging point on average with a typical lifetime of two years (they are bound to be vulnerable as necessarily unsupervised - ever looked at the frequency that certain CaRT service points are vandalised?)

 

OK, so we are possibly getting within a viable envelope but at very high risk.

 

All very much 'wet finger in the air' stuff which I post in order for others with more specific facts can shoot down. But I have not yet seen any realistic costing of a system for a near 100% electric canal system and it is needed before one can be comfortable with a short term trend in this direction. High risk will imply high reward which means that the cost to the end user will be increased.

 

Agreed. The tech in boats is easy repurposing of EV stuff. The hard part is charging points. Hard, but not self evidently impossible.

 

MP.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Mike Todd said:

But what about the economics? I assume that the restriction on mark up (as there is for normal marina supplies for domestic use) will not apply.

EV's are specifically excluded from the resale of electricity legislation and can be re-charged out at whatever price the provided wishes. This is as an incentive to pay for the infrastructure.

 

I have posted the legislation a number of times when this is discussed.

 

Part of a letter from Ofgem

Screenshot (292).png

Edited by Alan de Enfield

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 24/07/2020 at 09:11, mayalld said:

The purpose of taxation here is to encourage alternative (less polluting) energy sources.

 

At present, and in the near future, I simply don't see such sources becoming viable

 

We already pay the duty, but this change could lead to an end to canalside supply, and an increase in people fueling from cans, which would have an environmental impact

Ever heard of horses?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Ever heard of horses?

I wonder how a horse compares on methane and CO2 emissions compared to diesel.  I know not to stand too close behind a horse when it farts! 😄

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.