Jump to content

The machine stops (followed by white smoke!)


Featured Posts

2 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Are there 3 pins on the solenoid, I only saw 2. If so, 3 crimps.

Or has one melted out and gone? Can't see why there would be 3 for a solenoid.

TD'

 

Explained a bit back by @Sir Nibble. its a twin coil solenoid like a pre engage starter one with a timer chip to cut out the pull in coil after a given amount of time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, pedroinlondon said:

Morning Tony

 

Thanks for your suggestions.

I am more inclined to follow your latter suggestion as not to disturb the other cables that share a conduit all the way to the starter motor (and possibly other parts?).
Unfortunately I didn't have time to follow the cable properly yesterday, will try again later.

As for this cable, is it overly complicated inside? You mention the colour codes. Do you know how many wires are inside such cable?

You're right, I don't have crimper for this unusual square blades so will ask the help of an electrician or auto electrical shop. I'm only familiar with fitting in cabin and solar electrics, which is much easier and forgiving than engine electrics...

 

I assume the offending socket is on the end of a length of small loom that runs from the main wiring harness to the stop solenoid. If so this is what I suggest you cut leaving enough length still attached to the harness to easily fit the new crimp terminals. If this is the case the small length of loom will have three cables in it - one for each blade. Before you cut the cables carefully cut the looming tape off and the number of cables and colour code will be obvious. If you are asking how many copper strands are inside each cable I have no idea and apart from getting the correct crimp terminals it does not matter. With a bit of luck the people who make up the new socket and cable tails will be able to use the same colour code but they may not have them available so make sure you draw/photo the old socket so you know which terminal in the socket needs connecting to which colour.

 

You say conduit - would that be crinkled plastic? If so it may well be split along its full length. I would have expected the cables to be wrapped in PVC looming tape.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I assume the offending socket is on the end of a length of small loom that runs from the main wiring harness to the stop solenoid. If so this is what I suggest you cut leaving enough length still attached to the harness to easily fit the new crimp terminals. If this is the case the small length of loom will have three cables in it - one for each blade. Before you cut the cables carefully cut the looming tape off and the number of cables and colour code will be obvious. If you are asking how many copper strands are inside each cable I have no idea and apart from getting the correct crimp terminals it does not matter. With a bit of luck the people who make up the new socket and cable tails will be able to use the same colour code but they may not have them available so make sure you draw/photo the old socket so you know which terminal in the socket needs connecting to which colour.

 

You say conduit - would that be crinkled plastic? If so it may well be split along its full length. I would have expected the cables to be wrapped in PVC looming tape.

Thanks Tony. That should be feasible. I'll drop by Unistart later to get the solenoid replacement and ask them if they can help with the rest of it.

 

Some is crinkled plastic with a split but for some reason there's a lot of what looks like self amalgamating tape or similar. Easily replaceable if I need to cut it open really.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Explained a bit back by @Sir Nibble. its a twin coil solenoid like a pre engage starter one with a timer chip to cut out the pull in coil after a given amount of time.

Sorry missed that. So it will need a new solenoid then as well?   This dual voltage system is like the head load on disc drives then, a steady voltage to hold in and a one shot pulse to initiate the pull. Seems unnecessarily complicated.

I would be tempted to convert it to a mechanical stop.

TD'

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Sorry missed that. So it will need a new solenoid then as well?   This dual voltage system is like the head load on disc drives then, a steady voltage to hold in and a one shot pulse to initiate the pull. Seems unnecessarily complicated.

I would be tempted to convert it to a mechanical stop.

TD'

So would I but it looks as if that may be difficult, its not like the Beta external solenoids.

 

Point of order, not dual voltage, dual current. A high resistant low pull winding to hold the armature in plus a low resistance high current winding to pull the armature in. The pull in winding is of such a low resistance it would burn out if left powered up (like the pull in winding in a starter solenoid) so according to SirN a timer chip is used to turn it off after a set time. I think that in this case the timer chip failed so the pull in coil burned the lot out.

 

Edited to add: I could see some point in such systems IF the engine is ECU (computer) controlled because the ECU could easily control the pulse length without any need for a chip but in this installation its bonkers.

Edited by Tony Brooks
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

So would I but it looks as if that may be difficult, its not like the Beta external solenoids.

 

Point of order, not dual voltage, dual current. A high resistant low pull winding to hold the armature in plus a low resistance high current winding to pull the armature in. The pull in winding is of such a low resistance it would burn out if left powered up (like the pull in winding in a starter solenoid) so according to SirN a timer chip is used to turn it off after a set time. I think that in this case the timer chip failed so the pull in coil burned the lot out.

 

Edited to add: I could see some point in such systems IF the engine is ECU (computer) controlled because the ECU could easily control the pulse length without any need for a chip but in this installation its bonkers.

Sorry, not dual voltage, its two different currents, one to pull it in and a lesser one to hold it in. Same as some starter solenoids.

TD'

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

You say conduit - would that be crinkled plastic? If so it may well be split along its full length. I would have expected the cables to be wrapped in PVC looming tape.

OP’s first photo appears to show a fair amount of spiral wrap, so the loom has certainly been ‘fiddled with’ at some time. It does mean that it’s likely that it’ll be easy to get enough slack on those cables to remake the ends. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have the same engine - so I'd like to understand the issue. Is it that the original design was ECU controlled and now that it has been adapted to Marine, it no longer has the ECU and a timer bodge has been worked in to provide a engine stop? 

 

And further, it was the 555 chip that could have failed resulting in the coil burning out? 

 

Cheers

 

Alistair

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, alistair1537 said:

I have the same engine - so I'd like to understand the issue. Is it that the original design was ECU controlled and now that it has been adapted to Marine, it no longer has the ECU and a timer bodge has been worked in to provide a engine stop? 

 

And further, it was the 555 chip that could have failed resulting in the coil burning out? 

 

Cheers

 

Alistair

I have no direct experience but I doubt that engine is even capable of accepting ECU control because it has a mechanically governed injection pump(s).

 

I suspect its down to cost. That type of stop solenoid may be cheaper for the engine manufacturer to buy in because of high volume sales to the vehicle sector where ECU control is now the norm so the addition of the 555 still makes it attractive to the manufacturers. Where the timer chip is locate is anyone's guess but from what @Sir Nibble I took it that it may be in the solenoid itself. If not then around the instrument panel or in any "box" mounted on the engine. The talk about ECU control is only my take on why things have been done that way. I fear the only way you will get reliable answers is to talk to the engine  marinisers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Been following this thread with interest and increassing alarm, what ever happened to KISS?

 

Once ownerd a Baby Austin, to start you pulled a knob wot was connected to a wire that closed a pair of studs on the starter motor.

Stopping was no problem either, didn't need any help, it knew how to do that all by itself!

 

Technology has a lot to answer fer . . .

  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Man 'o Kent said:

Been following this thread with interest and increassing alarm, what ever happened to KISS?

 

Once ownerd a Baby Austin, to start you pulled a knob wot was connected to a wire that closed a pair of studs on the starter motor.

Stopping was no problem either, didn't need any help, it knew how to do that all by itself!

 

Technology has a lot to answer fer . . .

Early Austin Morris Mini had a floor switch for the starter motor, no solenoids, direct cables, an original KISS.  Nothing like the present overblown stupidly complicated BMW Mini.

TD'

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Indeed. Many pretty late cars are written off because they have unsolvable electronic trouble or too expensive to fix which are otherwise in excellent condition. My 1986 car is still going strong although it does have Renix electronic ignition and a Weber carb, oooh!!!. All the old Fords had the pull starter knob, a direct wire that pulled on a lever direct on the starter motor as did most pre war cars.

  The trouble really all began in the early 1970's when naff lightweight touch switches were fitted, they needed relays to stop them burning out.

Edited by bizzard
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, pedroinlondon said:

Thanks WotEver! They'll probably need the ref number or perhaps a photo and with the dimensions will suffice.

I’d have thought the latter (photos and dimensions) would suffice. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

I have no direct experience but I doubt that engine is even capable of accepting ECU control because it has a mechanically governed injection pump(s).

 

I suspect its down to cost. That type of stop solenoid may be cheaper for the engine manufacturer to buy in because of high volume sales to the vehicle sector where ECU control is now the norm so the addition of the 555 still makes it attractive to the manufacturers. Where the timer chip is locate is anyone's guess but from what @Sir Nibble I took it that it may be in the solenoid itself. If not then around the instrument panel or in any "box" mounted on the engine. The talk about ECU control is only my take on why things have been done that way. I fear the only way you will get reliable answers is to talk to the engine  marinisers.

There's a separate timer module. The reasons for it are twofold.

1. Internal contacts may not open if the solenoid is maladjusted and the coil will burn out.

2. You don't win a design award for using tried and tested technology.

  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Sir Nibble said:

There's a separate timer module. The reasons for it are twofold.

1. Internal contacts may not open if the solenoid is maladjusted and the coil will burn out.

2. You don't win a design award for using tried and tested technology.

Thanks SirN. So anyone with those engines need to look for the timer module and the OP's may be faulty so also need replacing before it burns out the new solenoid.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not sure if it's the same poster, but there's a thread on Facebook which shows the circuit diagram, with one connection being from ignition power, and the other from the starter solenoid terminal. So looks like two coils, one always energised when engine running, and an additional one energised when cranking to pull the solenoid in initially.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

Not sure if it's the same poster, but there's a thread on Facebook which shows the circuit diagram, with one connection being from ignition power, and the other from the starter solenoid terminal. So looks like two coils, one always energised when engine running, and an additional one energised when cranking to pull the solenoid in initially.

That's not unusual for things like refrigerator units. That could well be it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, pedroinlondon said:

So no markings of any sort under the paint on the solenoid.

Having some doubts regarding finding a match.

Does anyone here know which Kioty/Isuzu engine the Canaline 52 is based on?

Thanks

20200725_094323.jpg

20200725_094327.jpg

There is a thread on Facebook with exactly the same problem

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, pedroinlondon said:

So no markings of any sort under the paint on the solenoid.

Having some doubts regarding finding a match.

Does anyone here know which Kioty/Isuzu engine the Canaline 52 is based on?

Thanks

20200725_094323.jpg

20200725_094327.jpg

The canaline is based on a Kioti engine not an Isuzu engine. The Kioti engine is very similar to to a Kubota engine, in fact in the past they built Kubota engines under license until the went it alone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Personally I would not even bother with a stop solenoid. Just go for a cable stop. In fact when I bought my new Beta 75 I went into the factory to do a few mods to the engine. One of the mods was to remove the stop solenoid make up brackets to accept a stop cable. As someone said earlier, keep it simple.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.