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Alan de Enfield

Housing benefit will pay liveaboard's boat licence. Judge announces.

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5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Liveaboard boaters can already claim the mooring costs so, that is maybe an equivalent to 'ground rent' ?

The local authority where we were moored (some time ago) would actually pay the mooring AND the insurance, and the BSS and the Licence as they were all requisites of being granted a mooring.

Well that would upset the 'apple cart' if mooring fees were not accepted as part of a benefit claim if they were treated the same as ground rent for land dwellers!

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1 hour ago, Athy said:

I am one. I've expressed my opinion. Just because I'm (touch wood) comfortably off doesn't mean that I think that people who aren't shouldn't receive help. I would guess that I'm in the majority here.

 

I'm not sure what the majority opinion would be, and as you say yourself, you're just guessing.

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1 minute ago, blackrose said:

 

I'm not sure what the majority opinion would be, and as you say yourself, you're just guessing.

As there has, to my knowledge, been no national poll on the topic, making an intelligent guess is all any of us can do.

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Just now, Athy said:

As there has, to my knowledge, been no national poll on the topic, making an intelligent guess is all any of us can do.

 

Indeed there is no poll, which is why personally I wouldn't assume the majority opinion would be on one side or another.

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5 minutes ago, Athy said:

As there has, to my knowledge, been no national poll on the topic, making an intelligent guess is all any of us can do.

Sometimes, you Just can’t say enough.

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2 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

Indeed there is no poll, which is why personally I wouldn't assume the majority opinion would be on one side or another.

99% of people wouldn't give a monkey's and therefore would not express an opinion. Silence implies consent.

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2 minutes ago, Athy said:

99% of people wouldn't give a monkey's and therefore would not express an opinion. Silence implies consent.

Surely silence is equal to abstaining in a vote and therefore isn't giving consent it is not being prepared to support either side or as you say "not giving a monkey's"

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2 hours ago, Nightwatch said:

How can a local Council pay a years license fee for a ‘Continuous’ Cruiser, who must surely leave the area during the year. Does this not just apply to a liveaboard on a residential mooring within the council’s jurisdiction?

Maybe they will claim from all the Councils they boat through - that would encourage them to move over vast distances each year, and generate a substantial income (and I'd guess, tax free!!)

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7 minutes ago, Athy said:

99% of people wouldn't give a monkey's and therefore would not express an opinion. Silence implies consent.

No it doesn't.

Not 'voting' means whatever your thoughts, they are, (and should be) ignored as you CBA to take the trouble to tell anyone.

 

Just take Brexit as an example.

A majority of those who voted, voted leave, the argument from the losers was that the vote was not by the majority of the electorate so anyone not voting should be counted as 'remain'.

3 minutes ago, Mike Tee said:

Maybe they will claim from all the Councils they boat through - that would encourage them to move over vast distances each year, and generate a substantial income (and I'd guess, tax free!!)

That's a cunning plan, if you don't declare a home mooring you can only claim 2-weeks at a time, and can only claim from any LA once per annum.

To get the full allowance would require moving thru 26 LA areas per annum.

Edited by Alan de Enfield

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3 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Surely silence is equal to abstaining in a vote and therefore isn't giving consent 

An interesting viewpoint. It's a very old-established and well-known expression. If you remain silent on a subject, you don't oppose it, and hence give your tacit consent.

  But let's not split hairs. If councils are indeed liable to pay these licence fees, what would it amount to on the average taxpayer's C.T. bill? A penny a year each? A few pence? No one could seriously expect anyone to object to that.

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1 hour ago, magnetman said:

I'm probably just a sceptical cynic but it seems to me that if canals become too housing oriented then some discussions will take place and living on boats on a non fixed basis may be removed as an option. 

 

There is no way that canals will be allowed to become slum housing areas. 

 

 

Really? What legal powers do CRT or local authorities have to prevent people living on boats? 

They might be able to harass a few on grounds of nuisance (noise, smoke, rubbish on the tow path etc.), but that will make little difference overall.

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1 minute ago, Athy said:

An interesting viewpoint. It's a very old-established and well-known expression. If you remain silent on a subject, you don't oppose it, and hence give your tacit consent.

  But let's not split hairs. If councils are indeed liable to pay these licence fees, what would it amount to on the average taxpayer's C.T. bill? A penny a year each? A few pence? No one could seriously expect anyone to object to that.

I agree with the chance of it being noticeable on a taxpayers bill.   However given years of tory misrule austerity councils are strapped for cash and are likely to be looking tat raising any from anywhere they can.  I  doubt after the necessary borrowing for Covid things will get any easier.

 

I suspect when councils start getting claims, particularly from marinas they are going to start wondering why if people live there there is no income from council tax.  The obvious target will be liveaboards who aren't claiming benefits.  Choice of two ways forward, either charge  council tax or ensure nobody lives aboard in the marina.

 

Pessimistic I know but I strongly suspect it will happen, the question is how many councils.

 

A final thought have you ever seen a vote anywhere that adds abstentions to the majority vote?

  • Greenie 1

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2 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Really? What legal powers do CRT or local authorities have to prevent people living on boats? 

They might be able to harass a few on grounds of nuisance (noise, smoke, rubbish on the tow path etc.), but that will make little difference overall.

None, at the moment: that is Magnet's point.

Your emotive choice of verb is illuminating.

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9 minutes ago, Athy said:

An interesting viewpoint. It's a very old-established and well-known expression. If you remain silent on a subject, you don't oppose it, and hence give your tacit consent.

  But let's not split hairs. If councils are indeed liable to pay these licence fees, what would it amount to on the average taxpayer's C.T. bill? A penny a year each? A few pence? No one could seriously expect anyone to object to that.

I'd be interested to know whether individual councils are liable....

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1 minute ago, Jerra said:

.

 

A final thought have you ever seen a vote anywhere that adds abstentions to the majority vote?

Very neatly turned!

Abstentions, of course, often contribute to a majority.

1 minute ago, StationMaster said:

I'd be interested to know whether individual councils are liable....

Yes, this point came up earlier. No one knows yet - or, if someone does, could they please tell us?

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Just now, Athy said:

Very neatly turned!

Abstentions, of course, often contribute to a majority.

They often cause a majority, true.   Turned nothing incidentally basically it was my point to start with.

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1 minute ago, Jerra said:

 Turned nothing incidentally basically it was my point to start with.

Yes, you neatly turned my point into a part of your view.

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51 minutes ago, StationMaster said:

Interesting that ground rent isn't accepted as part of the benefit claim for land dwellers but the 'water rent' will now be available for boaters...

 

I suppose the licence fee is more like a service charge for land dwellers which is payable under benefit claims. (service charge covers things communal rubbish collection, grass cutting, window cleaning path maintenance, access maintenance etc.).

 

 

I think judges can often spin things to mean what they feel that they ought to mean, (or even what they want them to mean), if they are so inclined. It would have been quite easy for the judge to have decided this the other way, (perhaps on the basis that it ISN'T rent), and to have given quite justifiable reason/explanation.

 

I wonder if this will be appealed to a higher court?

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6 minutes ago, Jerra said:

I suspect when councils start getting claims, particularly from marinas they are going to start wondering why if people live there there is no income from council tax.  The obvious target will be liveaboards who aren't claiming benefits.  Choice of two ways forward, either charge  council tax or ensure nobody lives aboard in the marina.

Marinas pay business rates. Those with official residential moorings normally have a rating  assessment (called a mixed assessment)  that includes for the council tax equivalent  of the residential moorings.  The marina operator pays the assessed rates and, it is assumed, will recover that as part of mooring and service fees. Or perhaps not, if they are philanthropic.

 

Council tax is not payable on a boat (a chattel), only on a mooring ( real estate).  After that it gets complicated.

 

N

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4 minutes ago, BEngo said:

Marinas pay business rates. Those with official residential moorings normally have a rating  assessment (called a mixed assessment)  that includes for the council tax equivalent  of the residential moorings.  The marina operator pays the assessed rates and, it is assumed, will recover that as part of mooring and service fees. Or perhaps not, if they are philanthropic.

 

Council tax is not payable on a boat (a chattel), only on a mooring ( real estate).  After that it gets complicated.

 

N

Planning permission is I understand required for residential moorings.  If there is no planning permission and it has to be granted or the liveaboards leave would that have any influence on the business rates the marina has to pay?

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42 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

Indeed there is no poll, which is why personally I wouldn't assume the majority opinion would be on one side or another.

Pedant Alert

 

At the risk of starting a lengthy discussion about non-voters, the majority have to be on one side or the other it's just that we don' know which one!

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17 minutes ago, StationMaster said:

I'd be interested to know whether individual councils are liable....

The case was an individual against the borough council, if the council lost then surely the council will be the ones paying ?

 

25th June 2020 (AB v London Borough of Camden (HB) [2020] UKUT 158 (AAC)),

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15 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

I wonder if this will be appealed to a higher court?

It would appear that this was already an appeal over an earlier decision.

 

Upper Tribunal Judge Mr E Mitchell found that the boat licence without a permanent mooring qualifies under this regulation ……….

 

 

 

"It follows that the local authority, acting on 1st December 2016, did not establish a proper statutory ground for superseding Mr B’s award of housing benefit. The authority’s decision is set aside.

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

No it doesn't.

Not 'voting' means whatever your thoughts, they are, (and should be) ignored as you CBA to take the trouble to tell anyone.

Not voting can mean that no-one is putting forward a policy (or in the case of most elections in this country) set of policies that you support. If, for example, I like one party's policies less than than another's does that mean I must vote for the ones I dislike less? In my case that would be quite hard as I often struggle to decide which is worse. I am happy to have a discussion with anyone about what I think, I'm not prepared to endorse a whole swath of policies I disagree with which is what voting amounts to imho.

Edited by George and Dragon
capiTalisation

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27 minutes ago, 1st ade said:

At the risk of starting a lengthy discussion about non-voters, the majority have to be on one side or the other it's just that we don' know which one!

At the risk of contributing to said discussion; couldn't the majority not care one way or the other?

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