legal advice on moorings

[carol1740]

36 minutes ago, dmr said:

The laws relating to canals, residence, and council tax on boats are not always well defined, for example different councils take different views on council tax. A solicitor will cost you money and not give a definitive answer, and a court case will be even morey expensive. Apply to CRT for a mooring and if thats granted then let your daughter "spend a lot of time on the boat but not live on it", thats what everybody else does, and go for a nice big cruise a couple of times each year.

 

....................Dave

and if you read the terms then even if CRT grant permission they can withdraw that at any time in the future, living on boats is not like living in houses.

 

...............Dave

Thanks this sounds like sound advice

[Onewheeler]

One must also assume that there is sufficient depth of water at the bank. Has the OP checked?!

[Keeping Up]

5 minutes ago, Onewheeler said:

One must also assume that there is sufficient depth of water at the bank. Has the OP checked?!

Generally if permission is granted, the T's & C's will state that it is the moorer's responsibility to dredge it if necessary, and to do so in accordance with CRT's standards. This can be expensive!

[David Mack]

 

2 hours ago, carol1740 said:

Thank you so much David it is proving so complex, do you know of any solicitors who deal specifically with this type of problem but not related to CRT?

Waterway law can be complex involving Acts of Parliament back to the 18th century. Not something your average High Street solicitor will know anything about, and there aren't really any specialists either. Just follow the application procedure linked to earlier and you should be fine.  I can't promise you the outcome you want, but CRT deal with ordinary householders like you regularly and will be reasonable.

Good luck!

Edited April 29, 2020 by David Mack

[David Mack]

2 hours ago, Onewheeler said:

Do CRT not often retain a ransom strip alongside the canal on new developments so that they own the bank?

 

More usually CRT ownership of or rights over the offside bank relate to the original arrangements under the enabling legislation than recent developments. The exception is where CRT sell off canalside land they own, in which case they do retain a strip alongside the water's edge.

1 hour ago, cuthound said:

 

Indeed they often do. When buying my house I specifically asked my solicitor to investigate. She confirmed that CRT have a right to access the first metre of my land alongside the canal to maintain the bank.

 

Whether or not CRT own a strip of land along the canal edge, the EoG mooring process is the same, except if they do own a strip the mooring consent also gives you a right of access over that strip of land.

[John Brightley]

11 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

More usually CRT ownership of or rights over the offside bank relate to the original arrangements under the enabling legislation than recent developments. The exception is where CRT sell off canalside land they own, in which case they do retain a strip alongside the water's edge.

I worked for British Waterways architects department for a short time in the '90's. They had plans showing BW land ownership along all the waterways. Almost always they (now CRT) own a strip of land alongside the offside bank of a canal, though the width does vary a lot. The ownership usually dates from the original construction of the canal.

[dmr]

1 hour ago, Keeping Up said:

Generally if permission is granted, the T's & C's will state that it is the moorer's responsibility to dredge it if necessary, and to do so in accordance with CRT's standards. This can be expensive!

Your are not wrong. They require you to use an "approved contractor" and most contractors have a "mobilisation cost" of about £10,000 before they even start work. This is the cost of bringing in the tug, digger, and hoppers etc by road and crane. Not sure if Navvies, shovels and wheelbarrows are still allowed.

 

...............Dave

[David Mack]

26 minutes ago, dmr said:

Your are not wrong. They require you to use an "approved contractor" and most contractors have a "mobilisation cost" of about £10,000 before they even start work. This is the cost of bringing in the tug, digger, and hoppers etc by road and crane. Not sure if Navvies, shovels and wheelbarrows are still allowed.

 

...............Dave

Or simply manoeuvring your boat in and out of the mooring stern first, to displace all the silt into the main channel.

p.s. Best to do this before you apply for the mooring, because then there will already be sufficient depth if they check.

[cuthound]

2 hours ago, Keeping Up said:

Generally if permission is granted, the T's & C's will state that it is the moorer's responsibility to dredge it if necessary, and to do so in accordance with CRT's standards. This can be expensive!

 

Indeed, when I was buying my house 6 1/2 years ago, I  asked CRT what would happen if the mooring needed dredging. They said I must use a CRT approved contractor which (then) would cost from £6,000 for a 60 foot length.

 

Fortunately my mooring was deep enough (just).

[dmr]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

Or simply manoeuvring your boat in and out of the mooring stern first, to displace all the silt into the main channel.

p.s. Best to do this before you apply for the mooring, because then there will already be sufficient depth if they check.

This is a bit naughty as raising a silt plume or displacing the silt into the main channel are both bad. but I suspect this is a common approach and probably because CRT make dredging so difficult and expensive.

I know of a couple of visitor moorings where the depth at the mooring is greater than the bit of canal next to it, probably due to moored boats shuffling up and down and running their engines in gear for battery charging. ?

 

............Dave

[David Mack]

16 minutes ago, dmr said:

This is a bit naughty as raising a silt plume or displacing the silt into the main channel are both bad. but I suspect this is a common approach and probably because CRT make dredging so difficult and expensive.

I know of a couple of visitor moorings where the depth at the mooring is greater than the bit of canal next to it, probably due to moored boats shuffling up and down and running their engines in gear for battery charging. ?

 

............Dave

Yes it is a bit naughty. But I dare say it happens.

If you have suitable access and don't mind the potential disruption and mess it is probably cheaper to dredge an end of garden mooring using a land-based excavator and road vehicles to take away the dredgings (if you can't dispose of them on your land), and not to use floating plant at all.

[dmr]

4 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Yes it is a bit naughty. But I dare say it happens.

If you have suitable access and don't mind the potential disruption and mess it is probably cheaper to dredge an end of garden mooring using a land-based excavator and road vehicles to take away the dredgings (if you can't dispose of them on your land), and not to use floating plant at all.

This is probably why CRT like an approved contractor as a bit of knowledge and experience is likely required to take out the silt without also taking out the clay lining.

 

Taking dredgings away is another hurdle to overcome as it needs to be officially tested for contamination. Building a boat shaped shed at the bottom of the garden suddenly starts to look attractive ?.

 

................Dave

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, dmr said:

This is probably why CRT like an approved contractor as a bit of knowledge and experience is likely required to take out the silt without also taking out the clay lining.

 

Taking dredgings away is another hurdle to overcome as it needs to be officially tested for contamination. Building a boat shaped shed at the bottom of the garden suddenly starts to look attractive ?.

 

................Dave

Or even stand a boat down the bottom of the garden. 

 

I once bought a new bungalow after much hassle with the developer. I had a covenant that I couldn't put a caravan at the front of the property. He was most peed off when I put a boat on the front lawn for 12 months 

Edited April 29, 2020 by ditchcrawler
Spelling of course

[Nightwatch]

How long do you have to be away from a boat to enable you to say your not resident. Is it a month? The OP’s daughter could live with mum for a period of time. Wink wink nudge nudge!

Edited April 29, 2020 by Nightwatch

[Alan de Enfield]

55 minutes ago, Nightwatch said:

How long do you have to be away from a boat to enable you to say your not resident. Is it a month? The OP’s daughter could live with mum for a period of time. Wink wink nudge nudge!

 

On board for 28 days per annum and its residential.

 

The question that arises is whether the mooring of such a vessel requires planning permission as a material change in the use of land. The point at which the mooring of a residential boat on a waterway departs from an ancillary use of the waterway (which usually would not need planning permission) and moves to a material change to residential use (which usually would need planning permission) needs to be decided on the basis of fact and degree as well as the particular circumstances of a case. The use of the mooring for this purpose is not included in any of the classes prescribed in the Use Classes Order. It is therefore sui generis (not C3 Dwellinghouses).

In this context it is also worth noting that planning permission is usually not required where the residential use of a mooring is for no more than 28 days in any calendar year, since such temporary use is permitted development under Part 4 of the GPDO

 

 

 

Edited April 29, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

On board for 28 days per annum and its residential.

 

The question that arises is whether the mooring of such a vessel requires planning permission as a material change in the use of land. The point at which the mooring of a residential boat on a waterway departs from an ancillary use of the waterway (which usually would not need planning permission) and moves to a material change to residential use (which usually would need planning permission) needs to be decided on the basis of fact and degree as well as the particular circumstances of a case. The use of the mooring for this purpose is not included in any of the classes prescribed in the Use Classes Order. It is therefore sui generis (not C3 Dwellinghouses).

In this context it is also worth noting that planning permission is usually not required where the residential use of a mooring is for no more than 28 days in any calendar year, since such temporary use is permitted development under Part 4 of the GPDO

 

 

 

That says that use of up to 28 days per year is permitted development. It does not follow from that that use for 29 or more days per year necessarily needs planning permission. The document says that needs to be decided on the basis of fact and degree as well as the particular circumstances of a case i.e. there are no hard and fast rules. In practice the OP's daughter can live on the boat more or less full time providing she sometimes spends the night elsewhere (some combination of sleeping in the parental house, weekends away, holidays, staying over at the boyfriend's place, business trips etc. etc.) together with some trips out with the boat away from the mooring that involve at least one night away. In practice, providing there are no complaints (and why would there be?) The local authority will not want to get involved. They have enough other, more important, things to do with their limited resources. This is how hundreds, maybe thousands of marina liveaboards do it, and the OP's daughter need be no different.

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, David Mack said:

That says that use of up to 28 days per year is permitted development. It does not follow from that that use for 29 or more days per year necessarily needs planning permission. The document says that needs to be decided on the basis of fact and degree as well as the particular circumstances of a case i.e. there are no hard and fast rules. In practice the OP's daughter can live on the boat more or less full time providing she sometimes spends the night elsewhere (some combination of sleeping in the parental house, weekends away, holidays, staying over at the boyfriend's place, business trips etc. etc.) together with some trips out with the boat away from the mooring that involve at least one night away. In practice, providing there are no complaints (and why would there be?) The local authority will not want to get involved. They have enough other, more important, things to do with their limited resources. This is how hundreds, maybe thousands of marina liveaboards do it, and the OP's daughter need be no different.

 

By asking for suggestions of a suitable Solicitor the OP is obviously concerned about doing it properly and legally & not 'keeping her head down and hope no one complains'.

It is better she know what she is potentially getting involved in, as you know - ignorance is no excuse.

 

The commentary says "Planning permission is likely to be required for the mooring"

 

The OP can decide how she wishes to proceed knowing that she will 'probably' get away with it, but be prepared for if she doesn't.

 

 

[Onewheeler]

59 minutes ago, David Mack said:

That says that use of up to 28 days per year is permitted development. It does not follow from that that use for 29 or more days per year necessarily needs planning permission. The document says that needs to be decided on the basis of fact and degree as well as the particular circumstances of a case i.e. there are no hard and fast rules. In practice the OP's daughter can live on the boat more or less full time providing she sometimes spends the night elsewhere (some combination of sleeping in the parental house, weekends away, holidays, staying over at the boyfriend's place, business trips etc. etc.) together with some trips out with the boat away from the mooring that involve at least one night away. In practice, providing there are no complaints (and why would there be?) The local authority will not want to get involved. They have enough other, more important, things to do with their limited resources. This is how hundreds, maybe thousands of marina liveaboards do it, and the OP's daughter need be no different.

When I was idly looking at CART moorings as potential accomodation for my son while he was at university, most stipulated no more than 30 days of occupancy in every 31 (or something very similar). Sufficiently close to full occupancy as to not be an issue for most people.

[Nightwatch]

Before we moved onboard permanently I’d bet we were onboard for longer than 28 days during a year.

[Alan de Enfield]

 

11 hours ago, Onewheeler said:

When I was idly looking at CART moorings as potential accomodation for my son while he was at university, most stipulated no more than 30 days of occupancy in every 31 (or something very similar). Sufficiently close to full occupancy as to not be an issue for most people.

 

To get a 'leisure mooring' at BWML you must prove that the boat is not your primary residence, this is achieved by showing them a current Council Tax bill in your name.

 

Once you have a leisure mooring and are (shall we say) a 'high volume user' you are required to either take the boat out of the marina at least one day per month and spend the night somewhere 'outside'. If you don't want to take the boat out, then you need to vacate the boat for at least one night per month (stay with a friend, B&B etc)

 

If you cannot (will not) do this then you are required to take a residential mooring.

 

Leisure Mooring  
 
This product is for the boating enthusiast and customers wishing to maximise their leisure time allowing unlimited leisure use within the marina throughout the mooring contract, utilising their boat summer and winter is an expectation.  It is not permitted to stay on the vessel for more than 28 consecutive days whilst the vessel is moored in the marina in any one contract period.  BWML may from time to time request proof of residency away from the marina.  A leisure mooring has the following additional benefits over the standard mooring product. ……………………………………………...
 

 

30. Occupation of Vessels 
 
30.1.  The Owner shall not live permanently on board the Vessel nor shall they encourage or permit anyone else to do so, without the prior written permission of BWML, the exception being where a residential mooring has been purchased from BWML at Marinas that have full planning approval granted.  In this instance the Contract holder may reside, however approval for occupation by others must be sought even for short periods. 
 
30.2 BWML reserve the right to seek confirmation from the Owners  who have purchased a leisure mooring that they are using the mooring in accordance with the BWML Mooring Berth Definitions and not using the Marina for residential purposes. 
 
30.3. BWML reserves the right to transfer the Vessel’s mooring to a different Grade, including a residential mooring Grade, and to charge the Owner the difference in mooring fees at any point during the Contract or upon renewal of the Contract if it considers that the Owner is using the Marina for residential purposes. 

 

 

Edited April 30, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[ditchcrawler]

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

To get a 'leisure mooring' at BWML you must prove that the boat is not your primary residence, this is achieved by showing them a current Council Tax bill in your name.

 

Once you have a leisure mooring and are (shall we say) a 'high volume user' you are required to either take the boat out of the marina at least one day per month and spend the night somewhere 'outside'. If you don't want to take the boat out, then you need to vacate the boat for at least one night per month (stay with a friend, B&B etc)

 

If you cannot (will not) do this then you are required to take a residential mooring.

 

Leisure Mooring  
 
This product is for the boating enthusiast and customers wishing to maximise their leisure time allowing unlimited leisure use within the marina throughout the mooring contract, utilising their boat summer and winter is an expectation.  It is not permitted to stay on the vessel for more than 28 consecutive days whilst the vessel is moored in the marina in any one contract period.  BWML may from time to time request proof of residency away from the marina.  A leisure mooring has the following additional benefits over the standard mooring product. ……………………………………………...
 

 

30. Occupation of Vessels 
 
30.1.  The Owner shall not live permanently on board the Vessel nor shall they encourage or permit anyone else to do so, without the prior written permission of BWML, the exception being where a residential mooring has been purchased from BWML at Marinas that have full planning approval granted.  In this instance the Contract holder may reside, however approval for occupation by others must be sought even for short periods. 
 
30.2 BWML reserve the right to seek confirmation from the Owners  who have purchased a leisure mooring that they are using the mooring in accordance with the BWML Mooring Berth Definitions and not using the Marina for residential purposes. 
 
30.3. BWML reserves the right to transfer the Vessel’s mooring to a different Grade, including a residential mooring Grade, and to charge the Owner the difference in mooring fees at any point during the Contract or upon renewal of the Contract if it considers that the Owner is using the Marina for residential purposes. 

 

 

This is Park Farm Marina

 

1. The Marina is not an approved residential mooring. The planning conditions for the marina state that the maximum period of stay on board a Boat within the marina shall be restricted to two consecutive weeks in any 12 month period. Owners are expected to comply with this condition.

[Nightwatch]

In a marina environment it is easily monitored. EoG mooring it would be easily possible to live aboard. Especially using Mums address as home address. Just my thoughts.

[Athy]

53 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

 

 

1. The Marina is not an approved residential mooring. The planning conditions for the marina state that the maximum period of stay on board a Boat within the marina shall be restricted to two consecutive weeks in any 12 month period. Owners are expected to comply with this condition.

So, you have to leave your boat or take it out once a fortnight - not too onerous a condition.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Graham Davis]

6 hours ago, Athy said:

So, you have to leave your boat or take it out once a fortnight - not too onerous a condition.

Don't think "2 consecutive weeks in any 12 months" means that at all.

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, Graham Davis said:

Don't think "2 consecutive weeks in any 12 months" means that at all.

With BWML their '28 consecutive days' allows the 'clock to be reset after 1 night away from the marina.