legal advice on moorings

[carol1740]

I live next to a canal, can I moor a boat at the end of my garden for my daughter to live on?

 

[Stilllearning]

1 minute ago, carol1740 said:

I live next to a canal, can I moor a boat at the end of my garden for my daughter to live on?

 

Welcome to the forum. Others know more than me, but here’s a start.

I think the first thing to do is to contact CRT and talk to them about End Of Garden moorings and regulations. It won’t be free, by the way. 

[Athy]

1 minute ago, carol1740 said:

I live next to a canal, can I moor a boat at the end of my garden for my daughter to live on?

 

Welcome, Carol.

If the Canal & River Trust allow you to (you'll have to ask them), quite possibly - but you will have to pay a mooring fee even though the boat is beside your land. This is iniquitous but it's the rule. Also you will have to license and insure the boat.

Which canal goes through Hatfield?

[doratheexplorer]

Assuming it's a CRT canal, you need their permission.  Typically they will agree and charge you half of the going rate for moorings in the area.

[howardang]

8 minutes ago, carol1740 said:

I live next to a canal, can I moor a boat at the end of my garden for my daughter to live on?

 

This is the policy document from Canal & River Trust

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/library/631.pdf

 

It spells out the rules and includes an application form

 

 

Good luck

 

Howard

 

Edited April 28, 2020 by howardang

[Alan de Enfield]

26 minutes ago, carol1740 said:

I live next to a canal, can I moor a boat at the end of my garden for my daughter to live on?

 

I would remove all mention of the 'live on' part as you may also be required to have Planning Permission.

[howardang]

8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I would remove all mention of the 'live on' part as you may also be required to have Planning Permission.

I don't think this is good advice. If granted the permit is issued to the house owner and can't be passed on so I would have thought it is unlikely that CRT would allow a boat to be used as a permanent residence. The permit holder has to comply with all relevant rules etc which I would assume also covers planning permission, so it is not worth trying to be coy about use, that is if the applicant wants to do things legally of course.

 

Howard

[David Mack]

6 minutes ago, howardang said:

I don't think this is good advice. If granted the permit is issued to the house owner and can't be passed on

 

Not so. If you look at the document you linked to in post 5 you can see there is provision for the boat owner to apply for an end of garden mooring against someone else's land, with a letter of agreement from the landowner.

In the OP's case, if the parent owns (and licences) the boat then it is a straightforward EoG mooring application, and CRT doesn't need to know anything about the daughter living aboard. If the daughter owns and licenses the boat, then she should apply for the mooring with a letter of agreement from the parent as landowner. Since the daughter will presumably be using the parent's address as her home address, then again there is no need to mention that she lives aboard.

If the OP is a single parent and/or on benefits, then the daughter using the same address may lead to loss of Council Tax single person discount or affect benefits. If that should happen the OP would need to argue that the daughter does not live with her, just uses the same address. I believe others in a similar position have argued this successfully, although I can't quote specific cases.

 

[zenataomm]

I know you say "the end of your garden", but I'm just pointing out that some people regard a towpath between them and the canal as still being a canal at the end of their garden.

Of course it isn't, you can't just rock up and moor against the towpath for more than 14 days (usually).

Otherwise if it is not the towpath side of the canal, then others' advice about approaching CRT is relevant.

Yes, if it's not going to cause an obstruction (too near a bridge etc.) and if bankside is deep enough without leaving it stuck out in the navigation then you're likely to get permission and will still be charged.

[Alan de Enfield]

42 minutes ago, howardang said:

I don't think this is good advice. If granted the permit is issued to the house owner and can't be passed on

That was the case some years ago, but, it has now changed and anyone can apply for EoG moorings with the land owners permission.

[cuthound]

2 hours ago, carol1740 said:

I live next to a canal, can I moor a boat at the end of my garden for my daughter to live on?

 

 

Unfortunately not, my CRT End of Garden Mooring  Licence specifically prohibits residential use of my boat.

 

The details are in a downloadable pdf, but the forum's software wonnt let you attach pdfs.

 

Link here.

 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/enjoy-the-waterways/boating/moorings/mooring-faqs

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

That was the case some years ago, but, it has now changed and anyone can apply for EoG moorings with the land owners permission.

 

Indeed, when I wanted to buy my present canalside house about 6 and a half years ago, I only wanted it if I could develop a mooring. At that time CRT would only accept a request from the house owner.

 

I had to escalate to director level to get an agreement that I could apply with a covering letter from the seller to show he agreed to my application.

 

They must have changed their official position since then. 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, cuthound said:

 

Indeed, when I wanted to buy my present canalside house about 6 and a half years ago, I only wanted it if I could develop a mooring. At that time CRT would only accept a request from the house owner.

 

I had to escalate to director level to get an agreement that I could apply with a covering letter from the seller to show he agreed to my application.

 

They must have changed their official position since then. 

 

Maybe it is 'your claim too fame' (you got C&RT to change their mooring policy !)

[matty40s]

3 hours ago, Athy said:

 

If the Canal & River Trust allow you to (you'll have to ask them), quite possibly - but you MAY have to pay a mooring fee even though the boat is beside your land......

Corrected that for you.

The CRT might insist, bully, threaten, etc, but there are occasions when the EOG mooring fee does NOT legally apply.

[Athy]

4 minutes ago, matty40s said:

Corrected that for you.

The CRT might insist, bully, threaten, etc, but there are occasions when the EOG mooring fee does NOT legally apply.

Forewarned is forearmed.

 

Mike Ballinger, former moorings warden at Cropredy, used to reckon that riparian landowners on the Oxford Canal had a historic right to free EOG moorings, but I have never heard of anyone putting this belief to the test.

Edited April 28, 2020 by Athy

[John Brightley]

8 hours ago, David Mack said:

 

In the OP's case, if the parent owns (and licences) the boat then it is a straightforward EoG mooring application, and CRT doesn't need to know anything about the daughter living aboard. 

As regards planning permission, again don't mention anything to anyone about your daughter living aboard, as if you were to apply for planning consent for the use of the boat as a seperate residence, it is unlikely to be approved.  Just say to everyone that your daughter lives with you, have a bedroom available for her in the house, and if anyone queries why there are lights on the boat at night, just say that occasionally she goes to the boat in the evenings. Keep the use as minimal and as discrete as possible. Obviously the use is easier if you don't have close neighbours.

[Slim]

6 hours ago, Athy said:

Forewarned is forearmed.

 

Mike Ballinger, former moorings warden at Cropredy, used to reckon that riparian landowners on the Oxford Canal had a historic right to free EOG moorings, but I have never heard of anyone putting this belief to the test.

I think you will find that he was correct. I could name several EOG aka offside moorings where this is so. The tale I was told was that when the Oxford was nationalized the definition of the canal(in parts) was 25 yards from the  then towpath. My source thought that a similar situation existed on the Shroppie  

[dor]

8 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

Unfortunately not, my CRT End of Garden Mooring  Licence specifically prohibits residential use of my boat.

 

The details are in a downloadable pdf, but the forum's software wonnt let you attach pdfs.

 

Link here.

 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/enjoy-the-waterways/boating/moorings/mooring-faqs

I would think that, like many marina boat-dwellers,  you don't live on your boat, but do spend a lot of time on it ...

Most marinas built in the rush in the 2000s were not given planning permission for residential moorings, apart from perhaps one for a caretaker.  However most marinas didn't object to people living on their boat, as long as they didn't use the marina as their postal address (and didn't have children).

[carol1740]

22 hours ago, Stilllearning said:

Welcome to the forum. Others know more than me, but here’s a start.

I think the first thing to do is to contact CRT and talk to them about End Of Garden moorings and regulations. It won’t be free, by the way. 

Thanks for this

22 hours ago, doratheexplorer said:

Assuming it's a CRT canal, you need their permission.  Typically they will agree and charge you half of the going rate for moorings in the area.

Thanks

[carol1740]

21 hours ago, David Mack said:

 

Not so. If you look at the document you linked to in post 5 you can see there is provision for the boat owner to apply for an end of garden mooring against someone else's land, with a letter of agreement from the landowner.

In the OP's case, if the parent owns (and licences) the boat then it is a straightforward EoG mooring application, and CRT doesn't need to know anything about the daughter living aboard. If the daughter owns and licenses the boat, then she should apply for the mooring with a letter of agreement from the parent as landowner. Since the daughter will presumably be using the parent's address as her home address, then again there is no need to mention that she lives aboard.

If the OP is a single parent and/or on benefits, then the daughter using the same address may lead to loss of Council Tax single person discount or affect benefits. If that should happen the OP would need to argue that the daughter does not live with her, just uses the same address. I believe others in a similar position have argued this successfully, although I can't quote specific cases.

 

Thank you so much David it is proving so complex, do you know of any solicitors who deal specifically with this type of problem but not related to CRT?

[Onewheeler]

Do CRT not often retain a ransom strip alongside the canal on new developments so that they own the bank?

[carol1740]

22 hours ago, Athy said:

Welcome, Carol.

If the Canal & River Trust allow you to (you'll have to ask them), quite possibly - but you will have to pay a mooring fee even though the boat is beside your land. This is iniquitous but it's the rule. Also you will have to license and insure the boat.

Which canal goes through Hatfield?

no canal in hatfield, that is where I work,  just being careful, Grand Union

[Athy]

Just now, carol1740 said:

no canal in hatfield, that is where I work,  just being careful, Grand Union

That's a relief. I lived in nearby St. Albans for years and I didn't think I'd seen one!

[dmr]

8 minutes ago, carol1740 said:

Thank you so much David it is proving so complex, do you know of any solicitors who deal specifically with this type of problem but not related to CRT?

The laws relating to canals, residence, and council tax on boats are not always well defined, for example different councils take different views on council tax. A solicitor will cost you money and not give a definitive answer, and a court case will be even morey expensive. Apply to CRT for a mooring and if thats granted then let your daughter "spend a lot of time on the boat but not live on it", thats what everybody else does, and go for a nice big cruise a couple of times each year.

 

....................Dave

and if you read the terms then even if CRT grant permission they can withdraw that at any time in the future, living on boats is not like living in houses.

 

...............Dave

[cuthound]

41 minutes ago, Onewheeler said:

Do CRT not often retain a ransom strip alongside the canal on new developments so that they own the bank?

 

Indeed they often do. When buying my house I specifically asked my solicitor to investigate. She confirmed that CRT have a right to access the first metre of my land alongside the canal to maintain the bank.