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Modern Oils


Andy_B
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On 01/03/2020 at 17:43, Andy_B said:

This could be a case of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing, but wouldn't it be a perfectly sensible thing to do to use a modern multigrade oil in a vintage engine?  Say a 5W30 instead of a "classic" SAE30?

 

As I understand, it'll still be as viscous as a hot SAE30 when it's hot, and no less viscous than a hot SAE30 when cold.  

 

Don't the advantages of multigrade apply perfectly well to a vintage engine?

 

Thinking of using 5W30 or perhaps just 20W50 in my JP2.

 

Am I a dangerous loon (please those that know me judge this purely on the oil idea)?

Years ago I  did this to an air cooled VW engine designed to run on straight 30 grade  and it wrecked the engine.

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I've just come across this topic. I have a JP2 and I use Halfords Classic 20w50 in it, which I get ,with trade discount, for about £17 a gallon. Mind you, I have a proper oil filter element fitted instead of the strainer, and I change my oil every 250 hours.

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10 minutes ago, monkeyhanger said:

I've just come across this topic. I have a JP2 and I use Halfords Classic 20w50 in it, which I get ,with trade discount, for about £17 a gallon. Mind you, I have a proper oil filter element fitted instead of the strainer, and I change my oil every 250 hours.

Wet sump or separate oil tank?

£17 a gallon (5 litres?) isn't a whole lot cheaper than Morris Golden Film bought in bulk.

Halfords website says this oil should be changed every 2000-3000 miles, which at an average car speed of say 30mph equates to 70-100 hours. Is a JP2 that much less demanding of an oil that the interval can be extended threefold?

Edited by David Mack
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8 minutes ago, monkeyhanger said:

I've just come across this topic. I have a JP2 and I use Halfords Classic 20w50 in it, which I get ,with trade discount, for about £17 a gallon. Mind you, I have a proper oil filter element fitted instead of the strainer, and I change my oil every 250 hours.

How long / how many hours have you been using this grade?

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13 minutes ago, monkeyhanger said:

I've just come across this topic. I have a JP2 and I use Halfords Classic 20w50 in it, which I get ,with trade discount, for about £17 a gallon. Mind you, I have a proper oil filter element fitted instead of the strainer, and I change my oil every 250 hours.

Any issues with pressure? The gauzes are so free flowing a normal filter would worry me. I'm not a fan of Halfords oil, it seemed to blacken and thin a lot faster than Rockoil or morris. Last 25 litre of Rockoil was £75 i believe, early last year from marine engine services. 

Edited by BWM
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Having run my hand start only JP2 on Morris Golden film SAE 20 for the last couple of decades, and having recently dismantled the bottom end, I can confirm that it seems to have done a great job! Some of my bearings had fatigue damage to the white metal (no fault of the oil), and the big end journals wanted a re-grind to -10 thou, however the main journals only wanted a polish (still on original diameter). I'm reasonably confident I'm the first person to have removed the crank from my engine, so have no gripes about this level of wear/damage after 60 years of use. I've never put SAE 30 in it as it's hand start and I want to be able to use it in winter!

Quick question - when I get it running again, should I use running-in oil? https://www.morrislubricantsonline.co.uk/golden-film-running-in-oil.html Bearing in mind (excuse the pun) that I've got new main bearings, big end bearings, pistons and liners it seems like it might be a good idea...

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18 hours ago, MartynG said:

Years ago I  did this to an air cooled VW engine designed to run on straight 30 grade  and it wrecked the engine.

What went wrong?  I did the external full flow modification on mine but I think I still still ran it on straight 30, but I reckon a modern oil with dispersant additive would have been better?  Those engines did run very hot when worked hard which could be an issue with some oils?

 

...................Dave

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4 hours ago, dmr said:

What went wrong?  I did the external full flow modification on mine but I think I still still ran it on straight 30, but I reckon a modern oil with dispersant additive would have been better?  Those engines did run very hot when worked hard which could be an issue with some oils?

 

...................Dave

The car, a Beetle, belonged to the woman who later became my first (and present) wife . We were quite young at the time .

She insisted on using multigrade oil for an oil change  on recommendation of her father ,despite my protests . I didn't drive at the time.

We took the car to Devon from Lincoln  and she said ''what does this  light mean?'' 

The oil level was low , hence the oil pressure light. Still she insisted we topped up using multigrade . By the time we got back to Lincolnshire the engine bearings were shot.

I later discovered my father in law had never changed his own VW beetles oil from 30 grade .

 

 

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Air cooled VW engines could foam their oil if multigrade oil is used ie mix air into the oil, which hampers the oil pump, heat and the moving parts do it, like beating Meringue mixture to mix air into it. Also rear engine and less air flow over the sump than a front engined car.

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2 hours ago, MartynG said:

The car, a Beetle, belonged to the woman who later became my first (and present) wife . We were quite young at the time .

She insisted on using multigrade oil for an oil change  on recommendation of her father ,despite my protests . I didn't drive at the time.

We took the car to Devon from Lincoln  and she said ''what does this  light mean?'' 

The oil level was low , hence the oil pressure light. Still she insisted we topped up using multigrade . By the time we got back to Lincolnshire the engine bearings were shot.

I later discovered my father in law had never changed his own VW beetles oil from 30 grade .

 

 

That lovely old VW engine had a reputation for going on for ever with zero maintenance but I reckon that was an urban myth and it was actually quite a sensitive and fragile engine. I suspect the ones that went on "forever" with no routine maintenance had likely actually had a number of rebuilds. Changing heads and "pistons and barrels" was actually quite a quick job.  One theory about oil types was that thinner stuff was better as it cooled the pistons more effectively. But on the other hand the rear main bearing was a bit vulnerable.

The classic spectacular (and quite common) failure was a piston melting causing the con rod to drop down a little and then emerge out of the side of the block.

I do miss that engine, but am a lot happier with a nice big diesel these days. ?

 

...............Dave

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On 03/03/2020 at 10:48, David Mack said:

Wet sump or separate oil tank?

£17 a gallon (5 litres?) isn't a whole lot cheaper than Morris Golden Film bought in bulk.

Halfords website says this oil should be changed every 2000-3000 miles, which at an average car speed of say 30mph equates to 70-100 hours. Is a JP2 that much less demanding of an oil that the interval can be extended threefold?

Wet sump. About 2 1/2 gallons. I would have thought 30mph would equate to approx 1000-1500 rpm. My engine runs at about 600rpm, no more, so that may change the maths a bit.

On 03/03/2020 at 10:49, Mike Tee said:

How long / how many hours have you been using this grade?

About 2 thousand hours. 4 summer seasons.

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On 03/03/2020 at 10:51, BWM said:

Any issues with pressure? The gauzes are so free flowing a normal filter would worry me. I'm not a fan of Halfords oil, it seemed to blacken and thin a lot faster than Rockoil or morris. Last 25 litre of Rockoil was £75 i believe, early last year from marine engine services. 

My engine runs at 18psi.  I was advised after the engine rebuild and the fitting of a paper filter to run the engine on "CC" oil. Halfords seems to fit the bill, but I'll check out Rockoil.

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2 hours ago, monkeyhanger said:

My engine runs at 18psi.  I was advised after the engine rebuild and the fitting of a paper filter to run the engine on "CC" oil. Halfords seems to fit the bill, but I'll check out Rockoil.

How did you install the paper filter, is it inline somehow or remote?

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On 07/03/2020 at 18:38, BWM said:

How did you install the paper filter, is it inline somehow or remote?

It's in place of the strainer in the sump. I use a filter which is a similar size to the strainer, mounted on a purpose made fitting.

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4 hours ago, monkeyhanger said:

It's in place of the strainer in the sump. I use a filter which is a similar size to the strainer, mounted on a purpose made fitting.

Thanks, sounds interesting, i'd still be a little concerned about flow rate under certain conditions but it sounds like its working for you. 

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1 hour ago, Andy_B said:

In the subject of oil pickups - if the jp-m is supposed to be a dry-sump, why's they're a pickup strainer in the bottom of the engine?

To scavenge and return the oil to the dry sump.

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On 03/03/2020 at 21:12, dmr said:

That lovely old VW engine had a reputation for going on for ever with zero maintenance but I reckon that was an urban myth and it was actually quite a sensitive and fragile engine.

Given it's ability to drop valve heads if the cooling got compromised, I have to agree! Like getting a paper towel in the fan

 

We have 20 litre barrels of SAE30 and offer a discount to HNBC members

 

Richard

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14 hours ago, BWM said:

Thanks, sounds interesting, i'd still be a little concerned about flow rate under certain conditions but it sounds like its working for you. 

Speak to Johnno at UCC. He made it for me and I have every faith in his knowledge and ability.

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1 hour ago, RLWP said:

Given it's ability to drop valve heads if the cooling got compromised, I have to agree! Like getting a paper towel in the fan

 

We have 20 litre barrels of SAE30 and offer a discount to HNBC members

 

Richard

I think that got fixed on the more recent valves. I read that the early valves were made in two parts, head and stem, and not always welded together too well. It was a lovely engine though. In Australia they burn the old ones on the barbie and get a strange "magnesium flare" sunburn. "Chuck another motor on the Barbie" 

 

.................Dave

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5 hours ago, monkeyhanger said:

Speak to Johnno at UCC. He made it for me and I have every faith in his knowledge and ability.

I think its safe to say he knows what he's doing!

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On 09/03/2020 at 15:17, monkeyhanger said:

It's in place of the strainer in the sump. I use a filter which is a similar size to the strainer, mounted on a purpose made fitting.

Are you talking about the physical size of the filter or the size of particulate matter the filter can filter out?

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3 hours ago, OptedOut said:

Are you talking about the physical size of the filter or the size of particulate matter the filter can filter out?

Physically the paper filter element is a similar size to the strainer. It must be able to do a better job of filtering oil than the strainer ever did I would have thought.

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31 minutes ago, monkeyhanger said:

Physically the paper filter element is a similar size to the strainer. It must be able to do a better job of filtering oil than the strainer ever did I would have thought.

I'd be a bit worried about it clogging up due to its finer filtering capabilities as the original strainer was sized only to protect the oil pump with a minimum restriction on the pump suction.

External paper element filters normally work on the pressure side of the oil pump usually combined a spring loaded bypass valve to prevent oil pressure loss in event of a blockage.

 

 

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On 11/03/2020 at 11:23, OptedOut said:

I'd be a bit worried about it clogging up due to its finer filtering capabilities as the original strainer was sized only to protect the oil pump with a minimum restriction on the pump suction.

External paper element filters normally work on the pressure side of the oil pump usually combined a spring loaded bypass valve to prevent oil pressure loss in event of a blockage.

 

 

I can only say that I start my cruising season with clean oil and a fresh filter. Having worked out my cruising route, I do an oil and filter change at about the half way point, or somewhere approaching 250 hours. I also have a pressure gauge mounted on the pigeon box, so I can keep an eye on that. Seems to have worked OK so far, but I'm always willing to listen to people more knowledgeable than myself.

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