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Noise pollution


CompairHolman
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1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

No they are not laws and I agree with much of what you have said - however - in the case of refusing the issue a licence unless you accept the T&Cs as binding it actually contravenes the law.

If you think it is OK for them to break the law, then at what stage do you thing their actions would become unacceptable ? (Thin end of the wedge !)

 

 

There was an interesting quote in court which shows the contempt that BW/C&RT have for the Law of the Land

 

It was a Mr Green as witness for BW who, responding to a challenge from a barrister, justified his claim that an internal BW memo over ruled an Act of Parliament, by reason of its later date.

It left the barrister nonplussed. All he could come out with once back on his chair, was – “Oh, so BW have declared UDI have they?

 

 

(I don't think he was referring to an "Unidentified Drinking Injury"

It may or may not be relevant but I noticed with interest a Supreme Court ruling yesterday that the Human Rights act trumps any other attempt to restrict it by regulation. As I read it.

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You dont mention what time you were subject to this noisy generator. Everyone has the right to charge their batteries and providing its done before 20.00 hrs, and the generator is fitted with a silencer I am of the opinion that your choices are limited to speaking to the other boat owner or moving your boat. If you speak to the other guy, you may be surprised by his (or her) reaction. Of cause if you choose to move, you may find that another boater moors within ear shot of you and runs his generator.

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19 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

It may or may not be relevant but I noticed with interest a Supreme Court ruling yesterday that the Human Rights act trumps any other attempt to restrict it by regulation. As I read it.

That could be a real can of worms :

 

Is it a human right to have heat and light ?

 

"It is my Human Right to run my engine whenever I want so I can have hot water and lights"

 

Extract :

 

UN Fact Sheet 21 :

 

 Annex 1 : Legal sources of the right to adequate housing under international human rights law

International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights (1966),adopted by United Nations General Assembly resolution 2200 A (XXI) on 16 December 1966, entered into force on 3 January 1976; 106 States Parties as of June 1992. State compliance with the Covenant is monitored by the Committee on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights. Article 11. I states:
"The States Parties to the present Covenant recognize the right of everyone to an adequate standard of living for himself and his family, including adequate food, clothing and housing, and to the continuous improvement of living conditions. The States Parties will take appropriate steps to ensure the realization of this right, recognizing to this effect the essential importance of international co-operation based on free consent."
 

Availability of services, materials and infrastructure
All beneficiaries of the right to adequate housing should have sustainable access to natural and common resources, clean drinking water, energy for cooking, heating and lighting, sanitation and washing facilities, food storage facilities, refuse disposal, site drainage and emergency services.

 

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10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

No they are not laws and I agree with much of what you have said - however - in the case of refusing the issue a licence unless you accept the T&Cs as binding it actually contravenes the law.

If you think it is OK for them to break the law, then at what stage do you thing their actions would become unacceptable ? (Thin end of the wedge !)

 

 

There was an interesting quote in court which shows the contempt that BW/C&RT have for the Law of the Land

 

It was a Mr Green as witness for BW who, responding to a challenge from a barrister, justified his claim that an internal BW memo over ruled an Act of Parliament, by reason of its later date.

It left the barrister nonplussed. All he could come out with once back on his chair, was – “Oh, so BW have declared UDI have they?

 

 

(I don't think he was referring to an "Unidentified Drinking Injury"

But you don't accept the t&cs "as binding" . You just accept them. Same as you do in every online bit of commerce. In effect, you admit their existence but not necessarily their compulsion. They aren't binding until a court says they are, till then, once you've accepted that they are there, you can ignore them if you want. Because they aren't a law . 

This is the point I made above, that every Tom Dick & Harry writes t&cs into their operating conditions, the bulk of which are legally unenforceable. They can write whatever they like, and you can accept them or make a fuss, it makes no difference. If they aren't legally enforceable, you regard them, if you want, as guidelines and that's all. It sounds like it's just playing with semantics, but it isn't. There is a real and important distinction between what is law and what is just a condition, and it affects the way you live, what authority you accept and where you lay the responsibility for your actions. If you like, there is the law, and there are orders. "Only following orders" is not a defence against lawbreaking. But if they're going to shoot you (or not give you a boat licence) if you don't accept an order (or a condition), then you accept it and just don't do it. Read Heller or Hasek. The law can insist, everything else is choice. 

CRT are no different from anyone else anyway, so why make such a song and dance about them when you happily go along with every other firm that does exactly the same thing? 

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2 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

But you don't accept the t&cs "as binding" . You just accept them. Same as you do in every online bit of commerce. In effect, you admit their existence but not necessarily their compulsion. They aren't binding until a court says they are, till then, once you've accepted that they are there, you can ignore them if you want. Because they aren't a law . 

This is the point I made above, that every Tom Dick & Harry writes t&cs into their operating conditions, the bulk of which are legally unenforceable. They can write whatever they like, and you can accept them or make a fuss, it makes no difference. If they aren't legally enforceable, you regard them, if you want, as guidelines and that's all. It sounds like it's just playing with semantics, but it isn't. There is a real and important distinction between what is law and what is just a condition, and it affects the way you live, what authority you accept and where you lay the responsibility for your actions. If you like, there is the law, and there are orders. "Only following orders" is not a defence against lawbreaking. But if they're going to shoot you (or not give you a boat licence) if you don't accept an order (or a condition), then you accept it and just don't do it. Read Heller or Hasek. The law can insist, everything else is choice. 

CRT are no different from anyone else anyway, so why make such a song and dance about them when you happily go along with every other firm that does exactly the same thing? 

I'm not sure in what sense you are using 'unenforceable' here. If you mean that there is no way that CaRT can compel licence holders to follow them then I agree. However, if you mean that CaRT cannot apply the T&C's then I do not agree. Once you have signed the T&C's you alter your rights, as people have discovered when they find that they did not spot an unfavourable condition is some small print that they really did not read. How often do folk read them all when loading a new app onto laptop or phone? Did you spot that the app you use as a vital part of your business has a condition that it may only be used for personal purposes and not for commercial ones? You can happily carry on doing that but if the owner of the app discovers what you are doing, do not be surprised if they take action to prevent you from doing so (such as blocking your login).

 

In the specific case of noise, CaRT do not have the powers to go around forcing boaters to not make noises in ways that the T&C's forbid - that is something that the Local Authority does have the legal power to do (subject to court approval)

 

However, if it comes to CaRT's attention that a boater has persistently been making out of hours noise then they are perfectly entitled to apply the consequences of the signed T&C's, namely to withdraw the licence. After that they are able to use the law which provides powers to deal with unlicensed boats.

 

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On 14/11/2019 at 18:53, Mike Todd said:

I'm not sure in what sense you are using 'unenforceable' here. If you mean that there is no way that CaRT can compel licence holders to follow them then I agree. However, if you mean that CaRT cannot apply the T&C's then I do not agree. Once you have signed the T&C's you alter your rights, as people have discovered when they find that they did not spot an unfavourable condition is some small print that they really did not read. How often do folk read them all when loading a new app onto laptop or phone? Did you spot that the app you use as a vital part of your business has a condition that it may only be used for personal purposes and not for commercial ones? You can happily carry on doing that but if the owner of the app discovers what you are doing, do not be surprised if they take action to prevent you from doing so (such as blocking your login).

 

In the specific case of noise, CaRT do not have the powers to go around forcing boaters to not make noises in ways that the T&C's forbid - that is something that the Local Authority does have the legal power to do (subject to court approval)

 

However, if it comes to CaRT's attention that a boater has persistently been making out of hours noise then they are perfectly entitled to apply the consequences of the signed T&C's, namely to withdraw the licence. After that they are able to use the law which provides powers to deal with unlicensed boats.

 

You have conflated a civil contract with a licence issued under statute by a ( partly ) public body . 

 

Please don't make me explain the difference.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 14/11/2019 at 16:18, Arthur Marshall said:

But you don't accept the t&cs "as binding" . You just accept them. Same as you do in every online bit of commerce. In effect, you admit their existence but not necessarily their compulsion. They aren't binding until a court says they are, till then, once you've accepted that they are there, you can ignore them if you want. Because they aren't a law . 

This is the point I made above, that every Tom Dick & Harry writes t&cs into their operating conditions, the bulk of which are legally unenforceable. They can write whatever they like, and you can accept them or make a fuss, it makes no difference. If they aren't legally enforceable, you regard them, if you want, as guidelines and that's all. It sounds like it's just playing with semantics, but it isn't. There is a real and important distinction between what is law and what is just a condition, and it affects the way you live, what authority you accept and where you lay the responsibility for your actions. If you like, there is the law, and there are orders. "Only following orders" is not a defence against lawbreaking. But if they're going to shoot you (or not give you a boat licence) if you don't accept an order (or a condition), then you accept it and just don't do it. Read Heller or Hasek. The law can insist, everything else is choice. 

CRT are no different from anyone else anyway, so why make such a song and dance about them when you happily go along with every other firm that does exactly the same thing? 

2019_11_19_15_21_59.jpg.816be3e235c7f271252a01e590206765.jpg

CRT don't agree that the T & C 's are unenforceable, however much Arthur rants on about it.

 

Everyone signed for a licence on the above basis , fact. 

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2 hours ago, CompairHolman said:

You have conflated a civil contract with a licence issued under statute by a ( partly ) public body . 

 

Please don't make me explain the difference.

 

 

 

 

 

 

And where, pray, did I conflate them? (I do know the difference!)

2 hours ago, CompairHolman said:

2019_11_19_15_21_59.jpg.816be3e235c7f271252a01e590206765.jpg

CRT don't agree that the T & C 's are unenforceable, however much Arthur rants on about it.

 

Everyone signed for a licence on the above basis , fact. 

I suspect you are missing the somewhat subtle point that was originally being made: CaRT cannot actually forcibly prevent boaters from making a noise, but they can take action to apply consequences to someone who ignores the T&C's.

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I should just point out that I am am personally quite happy with the T&Cs and have never found them to be unreasonable, nor am i in any way inclined to break them for the hell of it.  CH does seem to equate any form of discussion as a rant, but I suspect he's interpreting this through his own attitude.  I can't actually reply to him as I no longer see his posts, thank God, just the bits other people quote.  But it really doesn't bother me whether T&Cs are legal, enforceable, sensible or anything, any more than any other rule or law does.  It's an interesting matter to discuss, that's all. It's more important that people behave in a generally reasonable and considerate way, which if I recall correctly, CH was whinging that someone didn't, right at page one of this thread.

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3 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

And where, pray, did I conflate them? (I do know the difference!)

I suspect you are missing the somewhat subtle point that was originally being made: CaRT cannot actually forcibly prevent boaters from making a noise, but they can take action to apply consequences to someone who ignores the T&C's.

You conflated them here ..

However, if it comes to CaRT's attention that a boater has persistently been making out of hours noise then they are perfectly entitled to apply the consequences of the signed T&C's, namely to withdraw the licence. After that they are able to use the law which provides powers to deal with unlicensed boats.

 

Already been explained , the licence is statutory , T&C's cannot override statute, the statutory licence can only be revoked under the statutory grounds for revoking it. 

 

 

A. Yes they can , causing a disturbance is a breach of bylaw .

B. Explain exactly what action they can take for breach of the ultra vires terms and conditions ? 

1 hour ago, Arthur Marshall said:

 

 

Edited by CompairHolman
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Court rise!

 

The litigants in person of CWDF have presented their evidence (several times over) and having nothing further to add (we hope).  The jury will now retire, and will not return until they have reached a unanimous decision (which of course they are incapable of doing), so His Honour will take an extended luncheon...

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Well , we've got two engines and a generator running here since 12 am today, both engines are loud clanky lister SR types, one is emitting a cloud of exhaust smoke right opposite us,  the generator is on from 12 am to 3 pm every day, and another two engines come on again at 5 pm to 6 pm when the owners get in from work. 

 

So basically our quiet rural mooring is now ruined. I'm long term unwell and resting on board at the moment all day , now I'm stressed out and have a constant headache. 

 

 

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39 minutes ago, CompairHolman said:

Well , we've got two engines and a generator running here since 12 am today, both engines are loud clanky lister SR types, one is emitting a cloud of exhaust smoke right opposite us,  the generator is on from 12 am to 3 pm every day, and another two engines come on again at 5 pm to 6 pm when the owners get in from work. 

 

So basically our quiet rural mooring is now ruined. I'm long term unwell and resting on board at the moment all day , now I'm stressed out and have a constant headache. 

 

 

 

This is all fine and legal, you were arguing earlier in the thread weren't you? You held that CRT rules are not enforceable IIRC, not even the one that says you must not cause an annoyance to other boaters.

 

I expect they have all been reading this thread. 

 

 

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45 minutes ago, CompairHolman said:

Well , we've got two engines and a generator running here since 12 am today, both engines are loud clanky lister SR types, one is emitting a cloud of exhaust smoke right opposite us,  the generator is on from 12 am to 3 pm every day, and another two engines come on again at 5 pm to 6 pm when the owners get in from work. 

 

So basically our quiet rural mooring is now ruined. I'm long term unwell and resting on board at the moment all day , now I'm stressed out and have a constant headache. 

 

 

 

Notwithstanding my Post 239, I feel your pain. Stationary engine-running drives me dippy too. As you say, ruins the quiet nature of the cut. 

 

At least you don't have three neighbours doing their weekly ten hour charge to 99.9999999999%  SoC as constantly advised on this board. 

 

 

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This thread is what reminds me of real life Victor Meldrews.

Today i went by a boat at low tickover i glanced in the window and the guy waved his fist, so i stopped and blew my horn waiting for him to come and say what the problem was.He never bothered so i moored up and knocked his boat,he took a while but came out red faced and said his boat had wobbled.I told him maybe he should take up van life and not expect no movement from living in a boat on water.Noise polution? What about moaning polution???

Edited by Beetlejuice
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On 14/11/2019 at 18:53, Mike Todd said:

I'm not sure in what sense you are using 'unenforceable' here. If you mean that there is no way that CaRT can compel licence holders to follow them then I agree. However, if you mean that CaRT cannot apply the T&C's then I do not agree. Once you have signed the T&C's you alter your rights, as people have discovered when they find that they did not spot an unfavourable condition is some small print that they really did not read. How often do folk read them all when loading a new app onto laptop or phone? Did you spot that the app you use as a vital part of your business has a condition that it may only be used for personal purposes and not for commercial ones? You can happily carry on doing that but if the owner of the app discovers what you are doing, do not be surprised if they take action to prevent you from doing so (such as blocking your login).

 

In the specific case of noise, CaRT do not have the powers to go around forcing boaters to not make noises in ways that the T&C's forbid - that is something that the Local Authority does have the legal power to do (subject to court approval)

 

However, if it comes to CaRT's attention that a boater has persistently been making out of hours noise then they are perfectly entitled to apply the consequences of the signed T&C's, namely to withdraw the licence. After that they are able to use the law which provides powers to deal with unlicensed boats.

 

Under which Statute can a boat licence be revoked?

I believe, that provided a person can show a boat is insured, has BSS certificate, and the money to pay, then a licence cannot be refused.

The only grounds for revoking would be, insurance or BSS running out part way through the licence period, and not being renewed in good time.

 

Bod

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Twenty years ago 2 cylinder bob bob engines would probably drive you off the cut then.

Honestly this is pathetic

Edited to add,if you want silence so badly i suggest you get a padded cell as this planet is seriously over populated now,and peace and tranquility is not guaranteed anywhere,at any cost.

Edited by Beetlejuice
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1 hour ago, CompairHolman said:

Well , we've got two engines and a generator running here since 12 am today, both engines are loud clanky lister SR types, one is emitting a cloud of exhaust smoke right opposite us,  the generator is on from 12 am to 3 pm every day, and another two engines come on again at 5 pm to 6 pm when the owners get in from work. 

 

So basically our quiet rural mooring is now ruined. I'm long term unwell and resting on board at the moment all day , now I'm stressed out and have a constant headache. 

 

 

My mooring is close to industrial buildings and there is a constant low level hum,although not very loud is quite annoying after an hour or so.It's lovely when it is turned off at lunchtime and at knocking off time.

You have my sympathy having to put up with noise,but as others have pointed out there seems to be nothing (apart from moving) that you can do about it.

May I suggest that you buy a pair of industrial earplugs,and listen to the radio and telly through a headset.

I know you may say "why should I have to do that"? but I think it would be less stressful than hours of noise.

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1 hour ago, Bod said:

Under which Statute can a boat licence be revoked?

I believe, that provided a person can show a boat is insured, has BSS certificate, and the money to pay, then a licence cannot be refused.

The only grounds for revoking would be, insurance or BSS running out part way through the licence period, and not being renewed in good time.

 

Bod

Yes, but . . . 

 

Once you have signed the T&C's then failure to comply can result (legally, contract law) in the licence being cancelled. Some will argue that you are then entitled to a new licence without signing the T&C's but, highly likely, you won't get it. At that point the only option, other than to sign, is to go to court for a judge to determine the matter. Deep pocket time!

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1 hour ago, Mike Todd said:

Yes, but . . . 

 

Once you have signed the T&C's then failure to comply can result (legally, contract law) in the licence being cancelled. Some will argue that you are then entitled to a new licence without signing the T&C's but, highly likely, you won't get it. At that point the only option, other than to sign, is to go to court for a judge to determine the matter. Deep pocket time!

I suppose the question for His Lordship to consider is.

Can T&C's override a Statute right?

 

Bod

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3 minutes ago, Bod said:

Can T&C's override a Statute right?

Statute says you cannot be refused a licence if you meet the three conditions.

 

However once it has been granted  contravening the T&Cs would allow it to be removed, but, then you could re-apply and it could not be refused if you met the three conditions.

 

C&RT do not take you to court for contravening the T&Cs, but for failing to have your boat licenced (after they have revoked it)

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25 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Statute says you cannot be refused a licence if you meet the three conditions.

 

 

The point being however, that they may well refuse the licence even so.  Thus leaving you in the position of having to expend considerable time and/or money and delay to take the CRT to court to enforce your rights. If you are going to play awkward squad with CRT you can usually expect to get the same back, in spades.

 

 

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