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CompairHolman
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37 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

The point being however, that they may well refuse the licence even so.  Thus leaving you in the position of having to expend considerable time and/or money and delay to take the CRT to court to enforce your rights. If you are going to play awkward squad with CRT you can usually expect to get the same back, in spades.

 

 

And there in lies the problem...how to get a quick resolution.

 

Bod

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1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

If you are going to play awkward squad with CRT you can usually expect to get the same back, in spades.

Agreed.

 

Having been boating since about 1980 I have played by the 'rules' and never had any problems from BWB / BW / C&RT (except when a Volockie squashed me in a hydraulic lock on the Trent and the promised investigation never seemed to happen)

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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14 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Comply with the T&Cs, obviously. Hardly onerous is it? 

 

 

I don't think anyone has yet quoted which of the T&Cs they  object to, have they? Just their existence. One of the things I like about the boating fraternity is that it's the last refuge of the anarchists. Unfortunately, quite a few of them haven't grasped the fact that anarchy only really works when everybody obeys the rules,or at least, everybody else does. 

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Its not their existence its the fact that they are deliberately misrepresented by CRT as a contract and quote.... " any breach of these conditions would entitle the trust to terminate your licence".

 

That means in CRT's case they claim a breach of the contract terms they invented will override statute ( 1995 BW act ) and its a principle of law that contracts cannot override statute. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, CompairHolman said:

Its not their existence its the fact that they are deliberately misrepresented by CRT as a contract and quote.... " any breach of these conditions would entitle the trust to terminate your licence".

 

That means in CRT's case they claim a breach of the contract terms they invented will override statute ( 1995 BW act ) and its a principle of law that contracts cannot override statute. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It what way do they over ride statute? They indeed extend it but as written they do, as I see it, form a contract which both parties enter into. You are free not to sign them but will then have to persuade a court that CaRT should issue you with a licence despite the absence of such an agreement. Once you have signed up to them, they are indeed a liberty to claim breach of contract if you ignore them. Plenty of people would enjoy being a spectator to your contest and some might be delighted if you won. However, my experience is that folk like to complain about rules until the day when their absence gives them no means of seeking redress.

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6 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

It what way do they over ride statute

Just one example :

 

T&C's

 

7.7 You agree that:
(i) we can board the Boat, and/or enter any land you own or occupy which is adjacent to the Boat, in order to affix or place on the Boat, correspondence, contractual or statutory notices or court papers; and
(ii) we can come on board the Boat to inspect it where we need to check you meet these Conditions and we can cross the Boat for the purpose of accessing any adjacent boat that cannot reasonably be accessed from the bank. We will give you reasonable notice if we consider it is practical to do so.

 

 

 

Statute states that they must give 28 days notice and give the boat owner the opportunity to refuse. The only exception is in the event of an emergency (boat sinking etc etc)

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14 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Just one example :

 

T&C's

 

7.7 You agree that:
(i) we can board the Boat, and/or enter any land you own or occupy which is adjacent to the Boat, in order to affix or place on the Boat, correspondence, contractual or statutory notices or court papers; and
(ii) we can come on board the Boat to inspect it where we need to check you meet these Conditions and we can cross the Boat for the purpose of accessing any adjacent boat that cannot reasonably be accessed from the bank. We will give you reasonable notice if we consider it is practical to do so.

 

 

 

Statute states that they must give 28 days notice and give the boat owner the opportunity to refuse. The only exception is in the event of an emergency (boat sinking etc etc)

I am not clear that that over rides statute in that its purpose is to give CaRT additional powers in specific circumstances, probably not envisaged at the time of the legislation. Most of the T&C's fit into that category - if they did not give someone additional powers (albeit in some cases they do so by limiting those of others) then there would be no point in having them.

 

In any case, are you putting 7.7 forward as an unacceptable power? If so, that is the campaign to be had, not the existence of T&C's in principle.

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Of course, someone might complain if CRT just came and towed their boat away with no prior warning, because they had no right to get  on the boat and affix a warning notice that it had overstayed and they had noticed. Or had simply made a mistake.

Or if they refused to cross a boat to get to a dangerous one ... 

Generally, the t&cs add riders to the legislation to cope with changing conditions. They can, if unreasonable, always be challenged in court. 

Maybe the mods could rename this the "deja vu" thread? 

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On 28/11/2019 at 17:46, Mike Todd said:

It what way do they over ride statute? They indeed extend it but as written they do, as I see it, form a contract which both parties enter into. You are free not to sign them but will then have to persuade a court that CaRT should issue you with a licence despite the absence of such an agreement. Once you have signed up to them, they are indeed a liberty to claim breach of contract if you ignore them. Plenty of people would enjoy being a spectator to your contest and some might be delighted if you won. However, my experience is that folk like to complain about rules until the day when their absence gives them no means of seeking redress.

Please explain how you can " terminate" a statutory licence for breach of something that is not even in the relevant statute. 

 

Are you having a laugh ?

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On 29/11/2019 at 11:17, Arthur Marshall said:

Of course, someone might complain if CRT just came and towed their boat away with no prior warning, because they had no right to get  on the boat and affix a warning notice that it had overstayed and they had noticed. Or had simply made a mistake.

Or if they refused to cross a boat to get to a dangerous one ... 

Generally, the t&cs add riders to the legislation to cope with changing conditions. They can, if unreasonable, always be challenged in court. 

Maybe the mods could rename this the "deja vu" thread? 

You don't have to set foot on a boat to affix a notice . That is obvious. 

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On 23/11/2019 at 22:09, Arthur Marshall said:

I don't think anyone has yet quoted which of the T&Cs they  object to, have they? Just their existence. One of the things I like about the boating fraternity is that it's the last refuge of the anarchists. Unfortunately, quite a few of them haven't grasped the fact that anarchy only really works when everybody obeys the rules,or at least, everybody else does. 

Anarchy only works when everyone has a say in what the rules are.

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1 hour ago, doratheexplorer said:

Anarchy only works when everyone has a say in what the rules are.

I think anarchy is a utopian philosophy, therefore more of a religion and about as much use.  Boaters are what Heinlein defined as "rational anarchists" - we like our rules to be sensible, and just don't bother much with them when they aren't.

By the way, when I type on here, and this forum only, if I type a " in the usual place above the 2, I get a @.  There again, if I type a hash, I get a \. If I want a ", I have to type a @.  Is it just me?

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16 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

By the way, when I type on here, and this forum only, if I type a " in the usual place above the 2, I get a @.  There again, if I type a hash, I get a \. If I want a ", I have to type a @.  Is it just me?

a"

a\

a/

a@

 

Nope its just you.

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43 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I think anarchy is a utopian philosophy, therefore more of a religion and about as much use.  Boaters are what Heinlein defined as "rational anarchists" - we like our rules to be sensible, and just don't bother much with them when they aren't.

By the way, when I type on here, and this forum only, if I type a " in the usual place above the 2, I get a @.  There again, if I type a hash, I get a \. If I want a ", I have to type a @.  Is it just me?

 

I suspect that your device thinks you have a non-UK keyboard layout.

So it is just you, but only to the extent that you haven't altered some default settings somewhere.

(or you have, inadvertently!)

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4 hours ago, CompairHolman said:

You don't even understand the most basic principles of law if you think that's an answer. 

As has been said before, feel entirely free to proceed on the basis that you are right - many here and elsewhere will follow your case with close interest. If you prove your case in court then others will follow suit (until CaRT get the law changed to cover what they would perceive to be a loophole) or if you fail then they will deride your folly. Do keep us posted.

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