Insulation

[Nemysys]

As per my other posts, starting a boat interior refit shortly. The boat is 50ft steel, 40 years old and needs an update.

 

insulation is currently expanded polystyrene sheets, guessing 12-15mm, what is a good option to improve insulation?

are there any restrictions on what should or is allowed to be used? Thinking from a BSS perspective here.

 

Rock wool has been suggested, or the spray on expanding foam.

 

any thoughts?

[stegra]

Recent thread:

 

 

[Nemysys]

23 minutes ago, stegra said:

Recent thread:

 

 

Excellent, thank you.

[ThermoFoam - Insulation]

We would recommend the use of spray foam insulation. You can have it installed  by a professional company without having to worry. Here's a link:  https://thermofoam.co.uk/industrial-spray-foam-applications/boat-marine-spray-foam-application/

[Tony Brooks]

16 minutes ago, ThermoFoam - Insulation said:

We would recommend the use of spray foam insulation. You can have it installed  by a professional company without having to worry. Here's a link:  https://thermofoam.co.uk/industrial-spray-foam-applications/boat-marine-spray-foam-application/

I bet you would, this looks like a very thinly disguised trade advert.

 

Whilst on a new build pre-fitout oat PROPERLY applied spray foam is  usually considered the best I am far from sure that will be the case for a refurbishment that is likely to be done in stages with the boat never stripped right out.

 

I think the OP is probably best with board type insulation cut to fit lightly into the space between the frames and any gaps filled with DIY spray foam.

 

There have been cases where professional spray foaming has been of very poor quality and thickness

[ThermoFoam - Insulation]

Hi Tony,

 

Not really an advert just me trying to give some guidance!

 

We carry out a lot of spray foaming jobs on total rip out and refurbs and the jobs are carried out very professionally. Spray foam like any industry is full of good and bad installers, it's just picking through the rubbish to find the one's that care about doing a good job.

 

I agree that as a refurb done in stages without ripping out, other forms may be better but we tend to insulate a lot of canal boats that have been completely stripped and the solution works very well, particularly for filling and sealing tight and curved voids without leaving cold bridging

 

Kind Regards

 

Richard

[Nemysys]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

I bet you would, this looks like a very thinly disguised trade advert.

 

Whilst on a new build pre-fitout oat PROPERLY applied spray foam is  usually considered the best I am far from sure that will be the case for a refurbishment that is likely to be done in stages with the boat never stripped right out.

 

I think the OP is probably best with board type insulation cut to fit lightly into the space between the frames and any gaps filled with DIY spray foam.

 

There have been cases where professional spray foaming has been of very poor quality and thickness

Thanks Tony, you’ve hit the nail on the head.

 

The fit out will be done in stages, starting with the galley at the stern. The important thing is to keep the boat usable during the work.

Galley, living area, bedroom 1, passage way (past the bathroom), bathroom and 2nd bedroom

 

not at any stage will there be a total rip out.

 

i was thinking the same from what I read, something like spray foam adhesive, celotex and aluminium tape.

 

[Tony Brooks]

If you can afford it I would cover the whole insulation with slivered "bubblewrap" style insulation from rolls and tape all seams/joints with aluminium tape. That way if there are gaps in the board insulation you will at least have an insulating vapour barrier behind the decorative cabin/hull side boarding.

[Nemysys]

4 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

If you can afford it I would cover the whole insulation with slivered "bubblewrap" style insulation from rolls and tape all seams/joints with aluminium tape. That way if there are gaps in the board insulation you will at least have an insulating vapour barrier behind the decorative cabin/hull side boarding.

Thanks Tony.

 

are you suggesting something like this?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Dripex-Double-Aluminium-Insulation-Caravan/dp/B07FRBMXY9/ref=asc_df_B07FRBMXY9/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=309872438144&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=12169923978220820558&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=t&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1006959&hvtargid=pla-698683054921&psc=1

 

 

so from outside in as an example....

1) steel boat side

2) spray foam adhesive, holding

3) celotex, then tape the joints with aluminium tape

4) this style of bubble wrap, again tape the joints with aluminium tape

5) interior cabin boarding.

 

Or am I going for overkill here?

 

bearing in mind, she is 41 years old, currently has 12-15mm expanded polystyrene sheets, and no noticeable signs of damage.

we don’t use her during the winter, but she has had some interior But localised  wood damage due to winter moisture.

 

the insulation is more for the boat, rather than for us. If it was that cold, we would be at home. ?

 

[blackrose]

There are so many threads on this subject on the forum. Have a search and you'll find some detailed suggestions.

[Tony Brooks]

7 hours ago, Nemysys said:

Thanks Tony.

 

are you suggesting something like this?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Dripex-Double-Aluminium-Insulation-Caravan/dp/B07FRBMXY9/ref=asc_df_B07FRBMXY9/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=309872438144&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=12169923978220820558&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=t&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1006959&hvtargid=pla-698683054921&psc=1

 

 

so from outside in as an example....

1) steel boat side

2) spray foam adhesive, holding

3) celotex, then tape the joints with aluminium tape

4) this style of bubble wrap, again tape the joints with aluminium tape

5) interior cabin boarding.

 

Or am I going for overkill here?

 

bearing in mind, she is 41 years old, currently has 12-15mm expanded polystyrene sheets, and no noticeable signs of damage.

we don’t use her during the winter, but she has had some interior But localised  wood damage due to winter moisture.

 

the insulation is more for the boat, rather than for us. If it was that cold, we would be at home. ?

 

Yes, something like that but as you already have polystyrene insulation and no noticeable damage then it would be far cheaper to leave the polystyrene where it is and put 50mm of flame retardant polystyrene on top & tape the joints. I suspect the wood damage is more to do with historic window or vent leaks than condensation.

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

Yes, something like that but as you already have polystyrene insulation and no noticeable damage then it would be far cheaper to leave the polystyrene where it is and put 50mm of flame retardant polystyrene on top & tape the joints. I suspect the wood damage is more to do with historic window or vent leaks than condensation.

Or 50mm Celotex perhaps?

[Chewbacka]

9 hours ago, Nemysys said:

Thanks Tony.

 

are you suggesting something like this?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Dripex-Double-Aluminium-Insulation-Caravan/dp/B07FRBMXY9/ref=asc_df_B07FRBMXY9/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=309872438144&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=12169923978220820558&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=t&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1006959&hvtargid=pla-698683054921&psc=1

 

 

so from outside in as an example....

1) steel boat side

2) spray foam adhesive, holding

3) celotex, then tape the joints with aluminium tape

4) this style of bubble wrap, again tape the joints with aluminium tape

5) interior cabin boarding.

 

Or am I going for overkill here?

 

bearing in mind, she is 41 years old, currently has 12-15mm expanded polystyrene sheets, and no noticeable signs of damage.

we don’t use her during the winter, but she has had some interior But localised  wood damage due to winter moisture.

 

the insulation is more for the boat, rather than for us. If it was that cold, we would be at home. ?

 

Insulation is good to have in the summer, even when the outside is too hot to touch, the inside is not much hotter than outside air temp, no insulation and it gets as hot as a green house.  So don’t be mean with the insulation 

[Dr Bob]

27 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

Insulation is good to have in the summer, even when the outside is too hot to touch, the inside is not much hotter than outside air temp, no insulation and it gets as hot as a green house.  So don’t be mean with the insulation 

No.

Insulation is essential for the summer!?

 

Yesterday our roof got to 70deg C on the outside. Inside it got to 34deg C. I'd like a lot more insulation on the roof. The side of the boat facing the sun wasn't that much different. Don't skim on the insulation. Put in as much as you can.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

1 hour ago, Dr Bob said:

No.

Insulation is essential for the summer!?

 

Yesterday our roof got to 70deg C on the outside. Inside it got to 34deg C. I'd like a lot more insulation on the roof. The side of the boat facing the sun wasn't that much different. Don't skim on the insulation. Put in as much as you can.

This is where the OP has an advantage doing the insulation themselves as part of the refit. A boat builder on a new build will be tempted to minimise the thickness. It lowers the cost to them and increases the internal cabin size, making the boat more attractive to buyers. The buyer doesn't find the disadvantages this gives till the weather turns very hot, or very cold, by which time it is too late to easily fix.

 

Jen

[Tony Brooks]

3 hours ago, WotEver said:

Or 50mm Celotex perhaps?

Naturally, or Kingspan  but the OP made the point its a40 year old boat and he already has polystyrene. I think polystyrene will be cheaper and probably easier to pick up from the likes of Wicks. Doint it cabin by cabin he will not want a load of 8 x 4 insulation boards to store.

[Nemysys]

Hi, just revisiting a thread I started.

 

the refit of our boat has started, she is a 50 footer, built in 1978. 
Due to new insurers and the fact we are refitting it, the current expanded polystyrene insulation has to be replaced. It has been deemed not fire retardant.

 

The refit is being done in stages, so I cant get someone in to spray foam it all in one, so looking to DIY spray foam it as we go along. My friend who is doing the refit has suggested spray foam insulation as the best option. He is happy to do it.

 

Due to the age and shape of the boat etc, we would have varying thicknesses of foam as we go up and down and along. We don’t live on the boat and don’t use it in the cold weather.

 

I know there will be people saying don’t do it yourself, but we don’t have a choice.

Looking to see if there are any recommendations on product and regulations etc.

 

attached image of the first part of the rip out / refurb.

 

Thanks

 

[Boater Sam]

Think you may need a gas fitter and electrician!

 

I still prefer Kingspan carefully fitted, all joints taped, with bubble wrap stuff over the top. Maybe canned foam in the odd corners you can't get into with board.

[ditchcrawler]

23 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

Think you may need a gas fitter and electrician!

 

I still prefer Kingspan carefully fitted, all joints taped, with bubble wrap stuff over the top. Maybe canned foam in the odd corners you can't get into with board.

On a refit that is what I would do. A new empty clean shell I would prefer sprayfoam, but a bits and pieces job I think the sheet would be better.

[Narrowboat Nimrod]

I watched a fella on youtube, Colin Jacques. He used a 3M product one of the thinsulate range. It was like a thick blanket that could be cut with scissors. It was on a new build and it moulded over the bearers so not as many cuts/gaps. It was rot and fireproof. The whole series is worth a look, he did a fantastic job using a lot of reclaimed timber.

[stegra]

I've used two-part spray foam kits in houses on very uneven surfaces. On the nice flat surfaces of my new shell I decided to use Celotex and I think the result is better. If you're only doing a section at a time you might need to use smaller kits which work out more expensive. I'm not sure how long the resin last in the hoses and gun once they've been attached to the bottles. If you use half a kit then try to use it again a few weeks later it might not work; but you get plenty of nozzles so it might be worth a try. In my experience, the coverage quoted is difficult (not impossible) to achieve in real life so factor that into your pricing. Doing some quick (hopefully correct) calculations, 50mm Celotex works out about £150/m³ and larger spray foam kits over £400/m³ , using the manufacturer's figures. You need to add the cost of aerosol spray foam to the Celotex but that's quite a difference. 

[WotEver]

26 minutes ago, Narrowboat Nimrod said:

I watched a fella on youtube, Colin Jacques. He used a 3M product one of the thinsulate range. It was like a thick blanket that could be cut with scissors. It was on a new build and it moulded over the bearers so not as many cuts/gaps. It was rot and fireproof. The whole series is worth a look, he did a fantastic job using a lot of reclaimed timber.

This stuff?

[Narrowboat Nimrod]

10 minutes ago, WotEver said:

This stuff?

Very similar, I think it was by 3M and was black. His videos shows him cutting and installing it.

[stegra]

25 minutes ago, WotEver said:

This stuff?

That quilted foil stuff is almost impossible to screw through. The quilting wraps itself around the screw and forms a solid ball which prevents the board going back properly. I think the only way would be to use nails, whatever they are! 

[cuthound]

2 hours ago, Narrowboat Nimrod said:

I watched a fella on youtube, Colin Jacques. He used a 3M product one of the thinsulate range. It was like a thick blanket that could be cut with scissors. It was on a new build and it moulded over the bearers so not as many cuts/gaps. It was rot and fireproof. The whole series is worth a look, he did a fantastic job using a lot of reclaimed timber.

 

My boat is insulated in 3M Thinsulate. My previous share boats had sprayfoam.

 

I would say there isn't  much to choose between them in terms of thermal insulation, but Thinsulate is MUCH better at sound insulation.

 

It is not cheap, but it is much quicker to install and no cleaning up or cutting back is necessary afterwards.

Edited September 24, 2019 by cuthound
To unmangle the effects of autocorrect.