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hughc

Kelvin K2

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Kelvin K2. Electric and petrol hand start. Full rebuild with photographs. £8500. No offers. Regards, HughC.

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Having managed to take some photographs I can expand the information a little. The engine no. is 33595 whic dates it to around 1967/68. I ws going to fit this in Judith Ann but then decided taht an AS2 would simplify cooling  in a wooden boat. All bearings, including gearbox and water pump, either scraped and fitted to Kelvin limits or replaced with new. All ball races including gearbox thrusts replaced.New Flywheel bolts.. All gaskets including head and exhaust manifold. Piston liners and rings. Most fastenings. Starting valve spring. Injection pump. Refurbished injectors including spare.Injector pump coupling and spring. Petrol taps. Cam followers. Gear box lead inserts. Rear Mounting feet nuts. Starter U bolts.Injector pipes. Starter. Hand start and gearbox chain.Magneto impulse. This was a ground up rebuild starting with a bare crankcase.I completed the rebuild a couple of years ago and was going to fit it in Judith Ann but then decided to use an AS2 to avoid skin cooling on a wooden boat. The engine came via the previous owner and, I believe Kevin Whittle, from a Scottish fishing vessel.Engine no.33595 which puts it around 1967/68. Hugh

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Great pictures  - but forgive me for my ignorance -but the engine design looks to me as of the 1920s?  
i had fun with 1930s motor cars and their motive plants never looked as old as that. Even the Lister stationary milking machine I 'used' in the fifties looked more modern.

I ask because it's a shock to see how little progress lower volume engines had made.

 

The above engine is a labour of  love and huge credit is due to those who restore them - its the technology that boters me. 

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The model K was introduced in the early 1930's as the first diesel from a company with about 20 years of production of modular petrol marine engines for a demanding client base.  (Scotsfishermen who well knew the value of a bawbee!)   The basicmechanical design is therefrore from the 1920's.

 

The company history, I think, leads to the architecture of the model K  (and the model J which followed it);  modular like the petrol engines, with generous bearings, easy access waterpipes,  a simple lubrication system and an ability to change any single defective component, not 3 or 4 monobloc items.  They design expected them to be able to be maintained by the inexpert, and they often were.

 

The diesel engineering within is more advanced than the basic engine design.  It is heavily dependent on the work of Harry Ricardo, and Bergius paid to use the Ricardo patents. It was state of the art for the time.

 

The reason for the petrol starting system remains a mystery to me. The technology for cold starting was available, albeit fairly new, and adding a magneto to a diesel engine did not do much for simplicity,  reliability in a salt laden North Sea environment, or for cost.  Nonetheless it works and avoided either installation space for someone to wind up a diesel or the cost and complexity of a starter motor and battery ( another fairly new-fangled thing at the time).

N

 

 

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3 hours ago, BEngo said:

and adding a magneto to a diesel engine did not do much for simplicity,  reliability in a salt laden North Sea environment, or for cost. 

 

I don't think Kelvin petrol start systems were designed for starting out in the north sea, more likely in the harbour before setting off on the fishing trip. 

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Although the photographs show a modern fuel filter I do have the Kelvin fuel filters which will come with the engine. Regards, HughC.

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8 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I don't think Kelvin petrol start systems were designed for starting out in the north sea, more likely in the harbour before setting off on the fishing trip. 

 

Sometimes there isn't much difference between the two- except the ready availability of a refreshment or two harbourside, of course.

N

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1 hour ago, BEngo said:

 

Sometimes there isn't much difference between the two- except the ready availability of a refreshment or two harbourside, of course.

N

 

I guess on a warm sunny day the North Sea can be surprisingly calm and benign! 

 

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In my limited experience with a K3 and a J2 is that they are impossible to start on diesel by hand in cold weather. The design of the combustion chambers does not allow the fuel/air mix to get hot enough but they will easily go on petrol. Most later engines with this type of chamber have glow plugs which I don't think was an option on Kelvins. Not all of them had an electic start. My back is not a fan of the K3 and I think the OP was very wise not to install a Kelvin in a wooden boat. The K3 in the sailing barge used to move quite a bit despite being solidly mounted. I imagine a K2 in a wooden narrow boat would soon shake it to bits.

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As can be seen in one of the photographs on the front of the forward pair of cylinders is a mounting point for a steady bar. This was a standard Kelvin fitting for the diesel engines and was usually extended to the hull side. In Judith Ann we have what is in effect a six inch thick ten inch deep  lining plank and this on a four plank hull means that rigidity is really not a  problem. I eventually chose not to fit a water cooled engine because I came to the conclusion that direct water cooling was a definite non-starter. Been there , done that. That left some form of keel cooling and, since a skin tank doesn't really work in a wooden hull, this means external piping. Considering the things I have hit over the years I decided this would be constant worry.  Giving up the K2 installation was a wrench but the AS2 has its compensations. Regards, HughC.

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On my J2 the steady bar pulled the mounting stud out of the cylinder possibly weakened by corrosion. I don't think most NB  installations have a steady bar. Kelvins state that the engine mounts should be transverse rather than the longtidudial ones most have. Probably wise not to use raw water cooling on a Kelvin as they are mostly so old that internal corrosion of the block and heads means they have a limited life left so a sealed system with inhibitor is best although the water pumps tend to leak a bit.. I have used raw water cooling with a heat exchanger(closed loop on engine) for some 25 years and only rarely does the strainer need cleaning. AS2 much nicer and simple.

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Kelvin did market a keel cooled Model L.  It was effectively  a Model K with an external tube stack keel cooler designed to fit through the planking of a wooden boat.  I believe there is one at Anstruther .

Probably fine in open water,  but I doubt the tube stack would survive the rigours of today's BCN and the planking in Judith Ann may be a bit thicker than the fishing craft the engines were aimed at.

I still think a K2 would make a nicer noise than an AS2, but perhaps less of it.

 

N

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I’m part way through a long term K2 project. I’ve been lucky enough to find some new, old stock parts, including heads, water cooled exhaust manifold and water pump. The crank has been done, mains and big ends (over £2k!), I’ve got new pistons and one new cylinder which are unfortunately the Indian pattern parts Mr Whittle supplied. 

I’ve currently come to a stop due to the lack of another decent cylinder. Although a pair of used ones came with the engine they’re both full of corrosion and cracking from the base up. Seaward Engineering have agreed they have one to sell but won’t give me a price over the phone! I really don’t fancy driving up there with a pocket full of cash as they really would have me over a barrel at that point.. 

If anyone has a useable cylinder for sale please let me know, ideally from a lighthouse engine but I realise that’s a long shot. 

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2 minutes ago, BEngo said:

Have you tried Phil Trotter at R W Davis? 

 

N

Yes, Phil and myself have compared our stock of knackered cylinders and come up with nothing!

I’m sure he’s got one or two useable items but he’s understandably hanging on to them. 

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my experience with seaward is that you can drive up there with a pocket full of cash and still come away with nothing, I have some spares for the K and J but no castings unfortunately, I do have a box of bits to drop off with Phil Robins with a cylinder in it.

I have some new piston ring sets for the earlier pistons and .030 U/S Main bearings

How bad are your current cylinders?

I have welded some Kelvin cylinders for both the poppet valve engines and my F4 in my boat.

Tom

 

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Just picked up on this thread. Have you tried Phil Robbins down in Nineveh who took over the Kelvin owners club? Unless Phil and Noddy are one and them same!?

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