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Lizzy Lou

When do I officially ‘own’ the boat?

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Hi

 

Haven’t even introduced myself yet. Sorry. Sure I’ll get round to that soon.

 

Here’s my question. I’m just about to complete the purchase of a boat. Paid 10% deposit a few weeks ago to the brokerage. (A very well known small(ish) broker around the Tamworth/Lichfield area.) Full survey went great. I’m happy to proceed with purchase, but can’t physically be present for a little while.

 

So how safe am I to transfer the money to the (very genuine and very well established, well known) brokerage, who are selling on behalf of the owner? Will I own the boat at the point of money transfer? What might happen in the highly unlikely event of the brokerage ceasing trading before I can take receipt of the keys to the boat.

 

Appreciate any advice, as it’s obviously a sizeable wedge of money, and I’ve never done this before.

 

Very many thanks.

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1 hour ago, Lizzy Lou said:

Haven’t even introduced myself yet. Sorry. Sure I’ll get round to that soon.

Well here is as good a place as any so - Hello Lizzy and welcome to the forum. :)

 

There seems to have been a little mix up with some of the postings and a post meant for you seems to have be posted on another thread that was started about the same time as your so here's a link to it. 

 

 

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It is normal for the seller to keep the boat insured until midnight of the day of purchase so you should make sure it is insured and licenced from that day onwards.

Any reputable broker will keep buyers deposits and final payments in an escrow account, protecting you if they do go belly up.

The broker cannot always transfer the money from this account to the seller for 24 hours(money laundering regulations)....however, once your money hits the brokers account the boat is essentially yours.

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27 minutes ago, matty40s said:

It is normal for the seller to keep the boat insured until midnight of the day of purchase so you should make sure it is insured and licenced from that day onwards.

Any reputable broker will keep buyers deposits and final payments in an escrow account, protecting you if they do go belly up.

The broker cannot always transfer the money from this account to the seller for 24 hours(money laundering regulations)....however, once your money hits the brokers account the boat is essentially yours.

deleted

Edited by LadyG

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You should  agree with the broker  the boat becomes yours at the point you make the payment of the full balance owed 

Insure the boat from the day you pay the full balance.

If its insured by both you and the present owner for a day that's no big deal.

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2 hours ago, Lizzy Lou said:

What might happen in the highly unlikely event of the brokerage ceasing trading before I can take receipt of the keys to the boat.

 

Sadly you lose your money, and the owner still owns the boat, seeing as no-one has answered this yet... 🙁

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19 minutes ago, MartynG said:

You should  agree with the broker  the boat becomes yours at the point you make the payment of the full balance owed 

Insure the boat from the day you pay the full balance.

If its insured by both you and the present owner for a day that's no big deal.

Not just agree but have it in writing. Either in terms and conditions or better a signed document.

English law is very vague on transfer of ownership and if the broker goes bust you will have to prove ownership.

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8 minutes ago, PaulD said:

Not just agree but have it in writing. Either in terms and conditions or better a signed document.

English law is very vague on transfer of ownership and if the broker goes bust you will have to prove ownership.

Yes in writing. I have only bought two boats and had a written contract in both cases. 

Usually there  is a strict limit on the time to pay the balance after a satisfactory  survey . A couple of weeks ?

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Just now, MartynG said:

Yes in writing. I have only bought two boats and had a written contract in both cases. 

Usually there  is a strict limit on the time to pay the balance after a satisfactory  survey . A couple of weeks ?

There should be a contract of sale signed by both buyer and seller with transfer of ownership clearly defined. The broker should organise this.

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22 minutes ago, PaulD said:

Not just agree but have it in writing. Either in terms and conditions or better a signed document.

 

How sweet that you think having it all in a written and signed document will make a blind bit of difference if the broker runs off with the cash!

 

The OP will still be boatless, and who would they sue for breach of contract to get their money back? Ah yes, the missing, or bankrupt broker. 

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Are there any brokers of narrowboats that are in danger of going bust at the moment?

 

And if the boat belongs to her as soon as her money shows in the broker's account then surly it's the seller that's vulnerable rather than the buyer?

 

If the Boat belongs to her at the moment the money is transferred then why does the keys not being in her hand really matter - assuming she can prove that the money has changed hands?

 

Though I must say that would want the property transferred to neutral ground it it was me. 

 

 

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For sure if there is no contract of sale proving ownership the buyer has no chance of getting the boat if the broker goes bust even if they have paid for it. Administrators want proof of ownership otherwise any property in the yard is regarded as assets of the broker. 

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13 minutes ago, Tumshie said:

Are there any brokers of narrowboats that are in danger of going bust at the moment?

If there are,  they must be absolute numpties as the boat market is so strong at present.

13 minutes ago, Tumshie said:

 

And if the boat belongs to her as soon as her money shows in the broker's account then surly it's the seller that's vulnerable rather than the buyer?

Neither should be vulnerable unless the broker is a rogue.

 

If the Boat belongs to her at the moment the money is transferred then why does the keys not being in her hand really matter - assuming she can prove that the money has changed hands?

Getting the keys would be my priority after transferring the final installment

 

 

Though I must say that would want the property transferred to neutral ground it it was me. 

Neutral ground should be assured by an escrow account and British Marine Federation approved practices.

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, PaulD said:

For sure if there is no contract of sale proving ownership the buyer has no chance of getting the boat if the broker goes bust even if they have paid for it. Administrators want proof of ownership otherwise any property in the yard is regarded as assets of the broker. 

The boats in the yard of a proper broker are only owned by 3rd parties, not the broker.

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 Can you prove you own your boat?  If you leave it with a broker for a few months who has no proper paperwork the administrators will ask you to prove it. 

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The problem arises when people don't do their research and think that JohnnyLovelyBoatSales only takes 2% commision and has also offered to give me £30k for my boat that I havnt used for a few years as its "well sellable".

Nottingham was the latest to see one of these scams, boats on hard standing for sale where the owners had to get their own boats lifted back in, sometimes breaking in under dark, to retrieve them from the brokers compound. It was a very sad and instructive lesson to those that were buying and selling through someone who apparently had a good track record but split from his brother to do something new!!

He got sent down for it.

https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/local-news/jailed-boat-salesman-blamed-flooding-1518137

 

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I suggest that you appoint a third party to act on your behalf. They will take posession of the boat, to collect the bill of sale and keys from the broker and get them delivered to you. You should insure and licence the boat from the day you buy it. The CRT licence is not transferable. You will also need to get agreement from the marina it is moored in to keep the boat there although I think I would want it moving to another place. Matty40s under his business name may be willing to do this on your behalf

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4 minutes ago, matty40s said:

The problem arises when people don't do their research and think that JohnnyLovelyBoatSales only takes 2% commision and has also offered to give me £30k for my boat that I havnt used for a few years as its "well sellable".

Nottingham was the latest to see one of these scams, boats on hard standing for sale where the owners had to get their own boats lifted back in, sometimes breaking in under dark, to retrieve them from the brokers compound. It was a very sad and instructive lesson to those that were buying and selling through someone who apparently had a good track record but split from his brother to do something new!!

He got sent down for it.

https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/local-news/jailed-boat-salesman-blamed-flooding-1518137

 

Some history about Nottingham Boat Sales on Canalworld  

 

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1 hour ago, Tumshie said:

Are there any brokers of narrowboats that are in danger of going bust at the moment?

 

And if the boat belongs to her as soon as her money shows in the broker's account then surly it's the seller that's vulnerable rather than the buyer?

 

If the Boat belongs to her at the moment the money is transferred then why does the keys not being in her hand really matter - assuming she can prove that the money has changed hands?

 

Though I must say that would want the property transferred to neutral ground it it was me. 

 

 

If you have paid for a boat, and the broker has not paid the 'owner' then he is still the owner, if the broker then runs off with the money, the buyer has lost everything.

There is the reverse, where the buyer gets the boat, but the broker runs off with the money - the seller loses everything.

 

It happens with brokers / boat builders on average one every couple of years

3 minutes ago, PaulD said:

Some history about Nottingham Boat Sales on Canalworld  

 

You have just posted the link to the thread I was looking for.

Edited by Alan de Enfield

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Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

ou have just posted the link to the thread I was looking for.

I'm just reading now - thanks every one :)

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3 hours ago, Tumshie said:

Well here is as good a place as any so - Hello Lizzy and welcome to the forum. :)

 

There seems to have been a little mix up with some of the postings and a post meant for you seems to have be posted on another thread that was started about the same time as your so here's a link to it. 

 

 

 

"Sorry, we can't show this content because you do not have permission to see it."  Why?

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6 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

"Sorry, we can't show this content because you do not have permission to see it."  Why?

Somebody posted a reply to the OP of this thread but mistakenly posted it in the wrong thread unfortunately they had left and didn't realise what they had done. It was pointed out on the other thread but the OP of this thread didn't know so I posted the link so she could read what was actually meant for her. 

 

ETA the important bit - it was removed from the thread it was mistakenly posted in so there is in fact no link in existence now. 

 

Does that make sense...... it does in my head but that might not mean much in the real world :blink:

Edited by Tumshie
  • Greenie 1

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Be careful with insurance when a boat is sold.  I erroneously assumed, as did the buyer of my boat, that it would remain covered by my insurance for a few days.  However, I was told by the insurance company that as soon as the Bill of Sale was signed, the boat passed to the new owner and should be insured by him from that point.  There was no period of grace for the new owner to organise the insurance.

Quite inadvertently, the boat was uninsured for a couple of days.  No harm done, but a warning for the future.

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I'm not the OP but I have found this thread really helpful and would like to thank @matty40s & @PaulD for all the info and links, it makes much more sense now. 

 

 

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