BSS Question re Gas Lockers

[Peter009]

Can someone please confirm that what is happening tomorrow is correct if they can.  

 

We have two calor gas bottles installed properly and with a gas safety certificate in the gas lockers, we are having our water connected tomorrow and I want to just verify that having the water pipe and vent going through the gas locker via a continuous pipe and the vent and water outlet being outside the locker will not impact the BSS, I have read the BSS requirements and it only mentions no access to the cabin or obstructions which these would not be as they would be continuous pipes through the gas locker and out of the side of the boat can anyone see any issue with that ?  the only reason for putting them through the gas locker is that the water tank has the bed over it now and that would be the best location in terms of hiding the pipes.

 

Grateful for any response on this as I said it will be continuous pipes from the water tank and out of the side of the boat but through the side of the gas locker.

 

thanks

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, Peter009 said:

Can someone please confirm that what is happening tomorrow is correct if they can.  

 

We have two calor gas bottles installed properly and with a gas safety certificate in the gas lockers, we are having our water connected tomorrow and I want to just verify that having the water pipe and vent going through the gas locker via a continuous pipe and the vent and water outlet being outside the locker will not impact the BSS, I have read the BSS requirements and it only mentions no access to the cabin or obstructions which these would not be as they would be continuous pipes through the gas locker and out of the side of the boat can anyone see any issue with that ?  the only reason for putting them through the gas locker is that the water tank has the bed over it now and that would be the best location in terms of hiding the pipes.

 

Grateful for any response on this as I said it will be continuous pipes from the water tank and out of the side of the boat but through the side of the gas locker.

 

thanks

As long as the pipes passing thru the locker are above the height of the regulator you should be OK.

As long as where the pipes pass thru the gas locker sides are gas-tight you should be OK

As long as the locker is gas-tight (except the drain hole) to above the regulator you should be OK

As long as the pipes are fixed and could not impact on the cylinder or regulator you should be OK

As long as the cylinder is fixed in place and cannot impact on the pipes you should be OK

 

Why not ask a BSS examiner, we can only put our interpretation on the rules which are often at odds with the inconsistent interpretations made by the examiners.

The sides of every cylinder locker must extend at least
up to the level of the top of the cylinder valves, or
other high‐pressure components where these are
higher.
Up to the level of the top of the cylinder valves, or
other high‐pressure components where these are
higher, the bottom, sides, and seams of every cylinder
locker must be free of any:
• holes, e.g. caused by drilling, rust or cutting; or ,
• cracks, splits or de‐laminations; or,
• missing or damaged welds at seams; or,
• other signs of damage or deterioration…
…. that can be determined by visual examination to
penetrate the locker to the interior of the vessel.
Cylinder locker bottoms, sides and seams covered by
this check must not rely upon glue or sealant to
prevent any leaked LPG from entering the interior of
the vessel.

[Alan de Enfield]

Pipework must exit LPG cylinder lockers through either, a bulkhead fitting,
or a cable gland fitting, or be above the LPG‐tight level.
The sealing arrangements must be free of signs of damage and deterioration.
The above requirements also apply where any part of a cylinder housing
forms a part of the craft’s hull or superstructure and where the LPG pipe
exits the housing into the interior of the vessel.

Edited March 31, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[Jen-in-Wellies]

Are these the water tank filler and vent pipe you are talking about? You say outlet, not inlet. What are the pipe, fittings etc going to be made from? The least likely to cause BSS problems I think would be substantial steel pipe, welded in to the steel walls as they go through at any point below the cylinder height. The question to ask is, would a fitting coming loose, or the pipe being hit by a cylinder being moved lead to a situation where a gas leak could enter the boat? That is the safety side of things. Safe isn't necessarily the same thing as BSS compliant of course.

 

Jen

Edited March 31, 2019 by Jen-in-Wellies

[Peter009]

11 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Are these the water tank filler and vent pipe you are talking about? You say outlet, not inlet. What are the pipe, fittings etc going to be made from? The least likely to cause BSS problems I think would be substantial steel pipe, welded in to the steel walls as they go through at any point below the cylinder height. The question to ask is, would a fitting coming loose, or the pipe being hit by a cylinder being moved lead to a situation where a gas leak could enter the boat? That is the safety side of things. Safe isn't necessarily the same thing as BSS compliant of course.

 

Jen

Hi Jen yes the water tank and vent pipe they will be away from the cylinder and would not be an obstruction to them moving the fittings I believe would be steel I am not doing it a plumber is but I am making sure that nothing goes wrong where the gas is involved so thought I would put it to you guys,  I am going to print all of your comments when I see him tomorrow as I want to make sure there are no problems with this thanks guys you have as always been a huge help

[ditchcrawler]

Just now, Peter009 said:

Hi Jen yes the water tank and vent pipe they will be away from the cylinder and would not be an obstruction to them moving the fittings I believe would be steel I am not doing it a plumber is but I am making sure that nothing goes wrong where the gas is involved so thought I would put it to you guys,  I am going to print all of your comments when I see him tomorrow as I want to make sure there are no problems with this thanks guys you have as always been a huge help

If you are in doubt talk to someone who can give you official advice, I take it you are employing a plumber and not a boat builder to do this work. From my reading of the regulations the gas locker has to be gas tight between the locker and the rest of the boat, so I would suggest that any pipes, other than gas pipes passing through it would need to be steel and welded to make a gas tight penetration, but I am also a layman. If you are taking your boat to Europe you dont need a BSS certificate but with the age of your boat I am not sure about an RCD as you will post brexit be importing it into the EU

 

[David Mack]

We had a recent thread where the acceptability (in BSS terms) of a nut and bolt through a hole in the gas locker side wall was questioned. The general consensus was that in practice is it fine, and many BSS Inspectors will pass it, but technically it is in breach, unless the hole is above the level of gas bottle/valve/regulator.

So a BSS inspector could take the view that any non-gas pipework passing into or through the gas locker is similarly non-compliant, especially if it has bulkead fittings or similar at either end, which are equivalent to the unacceptable nut and bolt.

Best might be to have a relatively large diameter steel tube through the gas locker with fully welded connections each end, and then to pass your water pipe through this tube.

[TheBiscuits]

12 minutes ago, David Mack said:

We had a recent thread where the acceptability (in BSS terms) of a nut and bolt through a hole in the gas locker side wall was questioned. The general consensus was that in practice is it fine, and many BSS Inspectors will pass it, but technically it is in breach, unless the hole is above the level of gas bottle/valve/regulator.

No, that isn't true. 

 

Are you able to quote the regulation you think is breached either from the BSS guide or from @blackrose's discussion?

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

No, that isn't true. 

 

Are you able to quote the regulation you think is breached either from the BSS guide or from @blackrose's discussion?

I think it would come under the part I quoted in post #2

 

Up to the level of the top of the cylinder valves, or
other high‐pressure components where these are
higher, the bottom, sides, and seams of every cylinder
locker must be free of any:
• holes, e.g. caused by drilling, rust or cutting; or ,
• cracks, splits or de‐laminations; or,
• missing or damaged welds at seams; or,
• other signs of damage or deterioration…

 

As I said previously the inspector/examiners is the inly one who can state categorically it is a pass or fail, but ask another inspector/examiner and you will get a different answer.

The interpretations of the rules is inconsistent.

Edited March 31, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[TheBiscuits]

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

I think it would come under the part I quoted in post #2

 

Up to the level of the top of the cylinder valves, or
other high‐pressure components where these are
higher, the bottom, sides, and seams of every cylinder
locker must be free of any:
• holes, e.g. caused by drilling, rust or cutting; or ,

Nope.  That was the discussion we had on Mike's thread.  A hole with a gas-tight sealed bolt through it is by definition not a hole and does not affect the integrity of the locker.

 

It's not that laid back BSS inspectors will pass it, it's that over officious eejits will fail it, regardless of what it says in the BSS guide itself.

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, TheBiscuits said:

Nope.  That was the discussion we had on Mike's thread.  A hole with a gas-tight sealed bolt through it is by definition not a hole and does not affect the integrity of the locker.

 

It's not that laid back BSS inspectors will pass it, it's that over officious eejits will fail it, regardless of what it says in the BSS guide itself.

How do you (not you) know that the bolt has made a gas tight seal with the locker side ?

[TheBiscuits]

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

How do you (not you) know that the bolt has made a gas tight seal with the locker side ?

The gunge always oozes out around the painted over bolthead ...

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, TheBiscuits said:

The gunge always oozes out around the painted over bolthead ...

Assuming the person drilling the hole & putting the bolt thru' has used 'gunge'.

[TheBiscuits]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Assuming the person drilling the hole & putting the bolt thru' has used 'gunge'.

Sure, but if they did not, then there is a hole (as per your post) and the gas locker is not gas tight ...

[ditchcrawler]

The OP has still not said what material these pipes are made of or how he plans to penetrate from the gas locker into the cabin area of the boat

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

The OP has still not said what material these pipes are made of or how he plans to penetrate from the gas locker into the cabin area of the boat

Hopefully not thru' the floor of the gas locker.

[ditchcrawler]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Hopefully not thru' the floor of the gas locker.

Well I cant see the top of the water tank being higher

 

[David Mack]

14 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Assuming the person drilling the hole & putting the bolt thru' has used 'gunge'.

 

But, the next bit of the BSS requirements after your quoted text is

 

"Cylinder locker bottoms,sides and seams covered by this check must not rely upon glue or sealant to prevent any leaked LPG from entering the interior of the vessel."

 

So 'gunge' would seem to be out.

[WotEver]

39 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Best might be to have a relatively large diameter steel tube through the gas locker with fully welded connections each end, and then to pass your water pipe through this tube.

Agreed. Except that I’d call that second-best. Best would be to find an alternative route for the pipes, avoiding the gas locker entirely. 

[Peter009]

19 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Hopefully not thru' the floor of the gas locker.

Alan, what do you mean hopefully not through the floor of the gas locker, I am getting people to do this that apparently know what they are doing but that concerns me as I think that is exactly where he intends to have the pipes going up the gas locker I am supposed to be paying someone that knows what he is doing and has worked on canalboats but I am quite worried now as the intention is I understand to go from the water tank to the back and under the gas locker and right through to outside of the boat but definitely I believe starting at floor level and if he should not be doing that and has already done it as he was in on Friday and said he did a few things in the boat I am just hoping he has not gone ahead and done this if it is not correct as I told him to check with me first 

[TheBiscuits]

19 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

But, the next bit of the BSS requirements after your quoted text is

 

"Cylinder locker bottoms,sides and seams covered by this check must not rely upon glue or sealant to prevent any leaked LPG from entering the interior of the vessel."

 

So 'gunge' would seem to be out.

That's how the eejits I mentioned previously read the notes.  I read them as being that just gunking up a rotten gas locker floor or seam won't pass. 

 

I will take my sealed bolts up to any pressure test you want to perform, and have clear open gas vents at the bottom.  My locker complies with the *actual requirement* for the BSS, and only an eejit would argue otherwise based on the notes in the guidance.

 

Maybe @Rob@BSSOffice would like to comment on this point as it has been raised a few times recently.

[ditchcrawler]

8 minutes ago, Peter009 said:

Alan, what do you mean hopefully not through the floor of the gas locker, I am getting people to do this that apparently know what they are doing but that concerns me as I think that is exactly where he intends to have the pipes going up the gas locker I am supposed to be paying someone that knows what he is doing and has worked on canalboats but I am quite worried now as the intention is I understand to go from the water tank to the back and under the gas locker and right through to outside of the boat but definitely I believe starting at floor level and if he should not be doing that and has already done it as he was in on Friday and said he did a few things in the boat I am just hoping he has not gone ahead and done this if it is not correct as I told him to check with me first 

But are they steel pipes and has he welded them into the gas locker floor? 

[Ex Brummie]

I have a friend whose integral water tank formed the base of the gas locker, with the filler cap in the gas locker floor. When BSS came in, the examiner rightly rejected this, but accepted an extension comprising a 28mm compression coupler screwed into the filler cap, sealed with Loctite, an extension of 28mm copper through the gas locker to a point above the governor and fitted with another filler cap. The extension was secured to the back of the locker with munsen rings. It has stayed like this for 18 years and been passed by 3 examiners.

[Peter009]

5 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

But are they steel pipes and has he welded them into the gas locker floor? 

That I wont know until tomorrow I have asked my wife who was there and she said something was going on in the locker on Friday so I assume that he may well of done it, I assume that if they are not steel pipes and not welded in then I have an issue and they will have to be removed looking at some of the posts on this.  I can see the point of going through the locker as it would be neater but a compromise in safety is never an option regardless of how it looks.  The reason I questioned this in the first place is that he thought that it would be OK to put a vent in the locker itself before I said no as surely that would be be safe so now I am very concerned that actually I am paying someone to do something who apparently has the expertise yet is not considering safety or safety checks.  

 

Anyone want to buy a widebeam it might be for sale soon !!

[TheBiscuits]

1 minute ago, Peter009 said:

Anyone want to buy a widebeam it might be for sale soon !!

Not if it's a BSS failure ...