mayalld Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 1 minute ago, Tumshie said: Your welcome ? Yes for the 10 miles for £4,000 it makes better sense once I read it that way. It wouldn't be worth the time, expense to hassle that the nbta would cause them tying them up in legal wrangling. The baton twirlers could just get one of my parliamentary licences, pay the 5 grand and do what they want. The majority of their acolytes would soon realise that there were other options available that cost less, and jump ship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuthound Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Tumshie said: It wouldn't be worth the time, expense to hassle that the nbta would cause them tying them up in legal wrangling. The real issue with it would be proving to CRT's satisfaction how much you have moved. I can't see this model being adopted until CRT can introduce a reliable and relatively foolproof method of tracking a boat's movement. Perhaps an embedded GPS chip with a penalty of twice the annual maximum charge if tampered with? Edited June 27, 2019 by cuthound To remove a duplicate post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumshie Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 1 minute ago, cuthound said: The real issue with it would be proving to CRT's satisfaction how much you have moved. I can't see this model being adopted until CRT can introduce a reliable a d relatively foolproof method of tracking a boat's movement. Quite - even when there is a national roll out of 5G and a better over all mobile coverage if CRT tried this I could see a large number of people kicking up stink at being "tracked". Other than a GPS device on the boat the only thing I can think of would be a checkpoint style system, but with that it just proves that a person was at the check point not necessarily the boat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Pegg Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 43 minutes ago, Dave123 said: Should have added...obviously lots of forum users will want to go to London as we are canal enthusiasts by definition. But I seriously doubt London would ever see the boat numbers the Llangollen or South Oxford get. And if it wasn't for the rise in liveaboards much of the canal away from little Venice (all of Hackney/Kensel/Mile end) would still be a desolate no go zone as opposed to the vibrant colourful community it is now. And it isn't that hard to find a mooring anyway, so long as you are happy breasting up and don't expect to cruise until dusk and stop immediately wherever you have got to. Birmingham is an interesting example that someone mentioned above. I have often wondered why there aren't more liveaboards similar to London. It would improve the canal. We broke down at spon lane locks 3 years ago and the place is about the most depressing and desolate I have encountered. Yet the London equivalent would have had boats and people and a totally different vibe. Well Spon Lane isn’t in Birmingham for starters. If there were more liveaboards in Birmingham itself they would likely line the towpaths from University to Smethwick Jn. Those areas have a considerable amount of towpath traffic and in the case of the latter is one of the few places on the network you can up the revs and really move without the expectation of having to slow down a couple of minutes later. So I’m not really sure for who it would improve the canal. How does the linear mooring in London combine with towpath traffic? Is there conflict and/or is towpath traffic constrained? What goes on in Birmingham currently is broadly sustainable. There are a number of liveaboards who move about, often between recognised spots, with some seeming to take winter moorings. I will sometimes see a boat I recognise as a ‘Birmingham’ liveaboard a little further afield. There are also of course a number of residential mooring sites, whether all of these are full I don’t know but I think they are close if not absolutely full. If there gets to be many more boats in an unregulated fashion the situation will probably deteriorate for most of Birmingham’s current canal users. I would hate to see lines of moored boats of the main routes through Birmingham itself. There is however a lot of space elsewhere on the BCN that would benefit from more boats. JP 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul C Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 2 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said: Well Spon Lane isn’t in Birmingham for starters. Just for clarity, where is it? And where is "Birmingham"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mayalld Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 7 minutes ago, Tumshie said: Quite - even when there is a national roll out of 5G and a better over all mobile coverage if CRT tried this I could see a large number of people kicking up stink at being "tracked". Other than a GPS device on the boat the only thing I can think of would be a checkpoint style system, but with that it just proves that a person was at the check point not necessarily the boat. Those who object to being tracked can have a Parliamentary licence at £5k instead. It's all about choice init! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumshie Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 1 minute ago, mayalld said: Those who object to being tracked can have a Parliamentary licence at £5k instead. It's all about choice init! Could you explain what a Parliamentary License is, I've never heard of one and I tried looking online to see what it was but couldn't find anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tree monkey Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 3 minutes ago, mayalld said: Those who object to being tracked can have a Parliamentary licence at £5k instead. It's all about choice init! I am tracked enough, at work and on the roads and streets, I honestly do not understand this desire to allow even more tracking into the world. If I am caught doing something naughty and as part of my punishment have to wear a tracking device, well thems the breaks, otherwise keep tracking out of my private life 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerra Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 3 minutes ago, tree monkey said: I am tracked enough, at work and on the roads and streets, By being tracked on the roads and streets do you mean somebody is actively recording where Mr T M is at any time or do you mean that from various CCTV set ups they can attempt to work out some of where you have been? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 11 minutes ago, Tumshie said: Could you explain what a Parliamentary License is, I've never heard of one and I tried looking online to see what it was but couldn't find anything. It was mayalld's proposal as to a potential solution to the problem - loadsa posts ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumshie Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said: It was mayalld's proposal as to a potential solution to the problem - loadsa posts ago. Oh right - thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 Just now, Tumshie said: Oh right - thank you. So, what you do is offer two kinds of licence; Standard Licence under s17(3)(c)(i) - the clause under which licences are issued to moorers at present. Such licences cost much the same as now, and come with a requirement for some kind of mooring. That could be a traditional mooring, or it could be a roving permit, which sets prices based upon how long you want to moor on particular bits of the system. 28 days on the Macc over the year, free, 56 days, £1000 and so on Parliamentary Licence under s17(3)(c)(ii) - the clause under which CCers are licenced at present. Such licences would cost "a lot of money". So, the right to a CCer licence, and to argue the toss about interpretation would exist, but if you are charging somebody £5k to indulge his barrack room lawyering, then CRT won't care. Real (and not-so-real) CCers would have a range of cruising options available to them, at a price that reflects whether they are really CCing or just bridge hopping, and the shorter the cruising range, the more a licence costs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tree monkey Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 5 minutes ago, Jerra said: By being tracked on the roads and streets do you mean somebody is actively recording where Mr T M is at any time or do you mean that from various CCTV set ups they can attempt to work out some of where you have been? The motorway is full of cameras, the streets are full of cameras and work tracks me in 3 different ways, plus of course my smart phone but that's the only thing I have chosen to accept, the rest is forced on us. Not forgetting of course store cards and credit cards which I don't have but I do have a debit card so there's that. I really really dislike the casual way it's accepted, maybe it's the future and maybe it's inevitable but I do not like it 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerra Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 2 minutes ago, tree monkey said: The motorway is full of cameras, the streets are full of cameras and work tracks me in 3 different ways, plus of course my smart phone but that's the only thing I have chosen to accept, the rest is forced on us. Not forgetting of course store cards and credit cards which I don't have but I do have a debit card so there's that. I really really dislike the casual way it's accepted, maybe it's the future and maybe it's inevitable but I do not like it We appear to have different definitions of tracking. If I am tracking an animal I am deliberately trying to follow it, much of what you mention is either avoidable or not to me tracking. Work well you are stuck with that unless you change your place of employment. Street cameras aren't (unless you have been naughty and they are following you) tracking you. Yes they are recording your picture which in about 90+% of the time will never be viewed. Agin if you have been in the vicinity of an incident they can go back and try to work out where you went but that to me isn't tracking and only works while you are in that area much of the world away from cities and motorways is camera free. I agree store cards track people but they have chosen to allow it as they have with a mobile phone. I have never felt anyone is trying to track me apart from the mobile phone because like you I don't have store cards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuthound Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, tree monkey said: The motorway is full of cameras, the streets are full of cameras and work tracks me in 3 different ways, plus of course my smart phone but that's the only thing I have chosen to accept, the rest is forced on us. Not forgetting of course store cards and credit cards which I don't have but I do have a debit card so there's that. I really really dislike the casual way it's accepted, maybe it's the future and maybe it's inevitable but I do not like it When I worked in London, I was apparently tracked by 400+ cameras as I got off the train, went to the Underground platform, changed underground trains, went on the Docklands Light Railway and walked the streets of London. Then when i got to a data centre I was tracked by my access card, retinal scanning and CCTV. Nothing bad happened, so it no longer bothers me. Edited June 27, 2019 by cuthound To remove a letter masquerading as a space Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerbeerbeerbeerbeer Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said: So, what you do is offer two kinds of licence; Standard Licence under s17(3)(c)(i) - the clause under which licences are issued to moorers at present. Such licences cost much the same as now, and come with a requirement for some kind of mooring. That could be a traditional mooring, or it could be a roving permit, which sets prices based upon how long you want to moor on particular bits of the system. 28 days on the Macc over the year, free, 56 days, £1000 and so on Parliamentary Licence under s17(3)(c)(ii) - the clause under which CCers are licenced at present. Such licences would cost "a lot of money". So, the right to a CCer licence, and to argue the toss about interpretation would exist, but if you are charging somebody £5k to indulge his barrack room lawyering, then CRT won't care. Real (and not-so-real) CCers would have a range of cruising options available to them, at a price that reflects whether they are really CCing or just bridge hopping, and the shorter the cruising range, the more a licence costs. surely license evasion would increase massively ? All sounds very complex for something so simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul C Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 6 minutes ago, tree monkey said: The motorway is full of cameras, the streets are full of cameras and work tracks me in 3 different ways, plus of course my smart phone but that's the only thing I have chosen to accept, the rest is forced on us. Not forgetting of course store cards and credit cards which I don't have but I do have a debit card so there's that. I really really dislike the casual way it's accepted, maybe it's the future and maybe it's inevitable but I do not like it The problem is, just like roads, the use of the resources (canal) isn't free so it needs to be policed/enforced somehow or other. That you are tracked, is a side effect of the enforcement, not the primary aim. Or to put it another way, if we "went" with a non-tracked system - ie a flat system where everyone pays the same and no alteration is made due to mooring/not mooring/moving/not moving etc - instead of mayalld's suggestion, would you prefer that instead? Would you still prefer it if the "price" of freedom was £5000 rather than say £2000? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBiscuits Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 Just now, Paul C said: Or to put it another way, if we "went" with a non-tracked system - ie a flat system where everyone pays the same and no alteration is made due to mooring/not mooring/moving/not moving etc So pretty much what we have now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tree monkey Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 1 minute ago, Jerra said: Work well you are stuck with that unless you change your place of employment. Street cameras aren't (unless you have been naughty and they are following you) tracking you. Yes they are recording your picture which in about 90+% of the time will never be viewed. Agin if you have been in the vicinity of an incident they can go back and try to work out where you went but that to me isn't tracking and only works while you are in that area much of the world away from cities and motorways is camera free. This bit is the bit that i find particularly disturbing it leads easily into, why object if you have done nothing wrong, I mean why not just tag us all at birth? 4 minutes ago, cuthound said: When I worked in London, I was apparently tracked by 400+ cameras as I got off the train, went to the Underground platform, changed underground trains, went onbthe Docklands Light Railway andcwalked the streets of London. Thdn when i got to a data centre I was tracked by my access card, retinal scanning and CCTV. Nothing bad happened, so it no longer bothers me. I understand that but it does bother me 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul C Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 Just now, TheBiscuits said: So pretty much what we have now? Yes and no. Currently, it is "tracked" anyway - they either check you have a mooring, or they check your movement pattern and try to deduce what you're doing and whether it satisfies them. With a £5000 offering with discounts for movement, and by making as assumption that £5000 includes an element for mooring on the towpath >14 days, they could do away with more detailed tracking and you can be "free as a bird" for the bargain price of £5000! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerra Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 3 minutes ago, cuthound said: When I worked in London, I was apparently tracked by 400+ cameras I would suggest you weren't "tracked" but you were recorded. You would only be tracked (IMO) when somebody decided there was a reason to try to work out where "cuthound" had been. Even then it isn't really tracking anymore than any other form of evidence gathering is tracking. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tree monkey Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 4 minutes ago, Paul C said: The problem is, just like roads, the use of the resources (canal) isn't free so it needs to be policed/enforced somehow or other. That you are tracked, is a side effect of the enforcement, not the primary aim. Or to put it another way, if we "went" with a non-tracked system - ie a flat system where everyone pays the same and no alteration is made due to mooring/not mooring/moving/not moving etc - instead of mayalld's suggestion, would you prefer that instead? Would you still prefer it if the "price" of freedom was £5000 rather than say £2000? I would prefer we didn't walk even further into a society the is happy to accept tracking of our personal lives 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Williams Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 6 minutes ago, cuthound said: I was apparently tracked by 400+ cameras And we all know what cr*p images they take. so don't worry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul C Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 Side note: MI5 do actually track (and store) everyone, even if you've done nothing wrong, no court order etc etc..... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48597111 2 minutes ago, tree monkey said: I would prefer we didn't walk even further into a society the is happy to accept tracking of our personal lives You have the £5000 option then! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerra Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 Just now, tree monkey said: This bit is the bit that i find particularly disturbing it leads easily into, why object if you have done nothing wrong, I mean why not just tag us all at birth? So if there was a crime would you object to evidence gathering and being interviewed because you happened to be in the area. If not what is the difference between a CCTV showing you were there and me as a cafe owner saying "Oh yes I saw "tree Monkey" walking past at that time"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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