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C & R T responds to Government's Clean Air Strategy consultation

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How practical are electric boat engines in tackling all boating conditions. I would be interested to know. With road technology and improved batteries there is certainly enough power for the general needs of the car driver, but for the boater has such technology been transferred across. It is alright for a trip boat to pass through Dudley Tunnel, day in and day out, but how would such  type of craft fare on the tidal Trent, on the Severn to Worcester or Stourport or indeed against the normal flow on the Llangollen. 

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1 hour ago, Heartland said:

How practical are electric boat engines in tackling all boating conditions. I would be interested to know. With road technology and improved batteries there is certainly enough power for the general needs of the car driver, but for the boater has such technology been transferred across. It is alright for a trip boat to pass through Dudley Tunnel, day in and day out, but how would such  type of craft fare on the tidal Trent, on the Severn to Worcester or Stourport or indeed against the normal flow on the Llangollen. 

Electric motors are awesome. The problem is cost of both the electric propulsion system and the fossil fuel powered internal combustion engine most of us would need to provide the electricity in the first place so might as well do what we already do and fit a gearbox to the Diesel engine and miss out the added leccy motor expense. Which reminds me I must recycle my two plastic bottles this week to offset the fuel used during take off at uk airports!!

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1 hour ago, Heartland said:

How practical are electric boat engines in tackling all boating conditions. I would be interested to know. With road technology and improved batteries there is certainly enough power for the general needs of the car driver, but for the boater has such technology been transferred across. It is alright for a trip boat to pass through Dudley Tunnel, day in and day out, but how would such  type of craft fare on the tidal Trent, on the Severn to Worcester or Stourport or indeed against the normal flow on the Llangollen. 

As Smelly has suggested the technology is fine, the problems are :

 

1) Cost : motors + batteries = £s more than a diesel engine.

2) How do you charge it every day ? there is no infrastructure on the canals with facilities for 30,000 boats to plug in' (or even 5000 to plug in) daily where ever they happen to be on the 2000 miles of the network.

 

The obvious answer is to 'make your own electricity' - you could install a diesel engine with an alternator and leave that running overnight to re-charge the batteries - Oooops, no you cannot - running engines between 8pm & 8m is forbidden.

 

It is pie-in-the-sky until there is some huge step change in technology or billions invested in infrastructure.

Every Winter we get warnings about the possibility of power cuts due to a lack of generating capacity, companies are paid by the elec generating companies to run their own generators rather than be on the Grid.

Add another (say) 1 million / 2 million / 10 million* cars all 'plugging in' then the drivers going to watch Coronation Street, plug in their kettle, and 'ding' a microwave meal and out go the lights !!

 

* There are currently about 38 million registered vehicles on Britain's roads.

 

Recharging with a domestic plug into a regular household socket: 8-to-10 hours

Excluding sports and upmarket models, most electric cars are recharged in 8-to-10 hours on any 230 V power outlet through a cable with an adapter provided by the vehicle manufacturer.
The ideal is to charge electric cars at night unless they can benefit from electricity produced by your solar panels!

Normal charging with a home charge point: 4-to-6 hours

It is possible to have a charging station for domestic electric vehicles installed at your home. Some electricity providers offer to install a system designed to recharge electric cars at their customers’ homes: a “wall box”.
For a budget of £300.00 to £1,000.00, charging time is reduced almost by half. This makes it the cheapest and the easiest solution to put in place. Beware though, it is sometimes necessary to increase the power of the electrical supply (re-wiring with heavier cable to the house), which can increase the bill.

 

 

There is a distinct lack of thought going into the whole issue of electric power.

 

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With the hybrid drive, internal combustion provides the power required. With pure electric drive a suitable chargeable battery is needed. Would such a craft been a suitable replacement ? An on shore source of electric current would be needed to charge for the voyages and for the day to day other requirements such as lighting. The current use of internal combustion for all needs still must be cheaper, it would seem. 

 

And, as Alan has observed, much more thought must be made for electric propulsion to be an effective choice for boaters

Edited by Heartland

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On 18/08/2018 at 10:12, dmr said:

Does anybody know how many planes take off from the uk each day? I could not find a figure on the www?

About 400 from Manchester, which is the UK's 3rd busiest airport, so likely to be a few thousand altogether. 

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Off to Paris and the rest of France soon and am looking at various bits of information.

Came across this which the city authorities are encouraging owners with...

Depollution of boat engines

Professionals: Up to € 1,200 for the purchase of a pollution control system for oil and diesel powered engines.

Professionals: Up to € 9000 for the purchase of an alternative-energy engine for fuel and diesel engines.

Measure # 15

Aid for Ile-de-France companies carrying passengers on the Seine, on the Saint-Martin canal, on the Ourcq canal, on the Saint-Denis canal.

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3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

As Smelly has suggested the technology is fine, the problems are :

 

1) Cost : motors + batteries = £s more than a diesel engine.

2) How do you charge it every day ? there is no infrastructure on the canals with facilities for 30,000 boats to plug in' (or even 5000 to plug in) daily where ever they happen to be on the 2000 miles of the network.

 

The obvious answer is to 'make your own electricity' - you could install a diesel engine with an alternator and leave that running overnight to re-charge the batteries - Oooops, no you cannot - running engines between 8pm & 8m is forbidden.

 

It is pie-in-the-sky until there is some huge step change in technology or billions invested in infrastructure.

Every Winter we get warnings about the possibility of power cuts due to a lack of generating capacity, companies are paid by the elec generating companies to run their own generators rather than be on the Grid.

Add another (say) 1 million / 2 million / 10 million* cars all 'plugging in' then the drivers going to watch Coronation Street, plug in their kettle, and 'ding' a microwave meal and out go the lights !!

 

* There are currently about 38 million registered vehicles on Britain's roads.

 

Recharging with a domestic plug into a regular household socket: 8-to-10 hours

Excluding sports and upmarket models, most electric cars are recharged in 8-to-10 hours on any 230 V power outlet through a cable with an adapter provided by the vehicle manufacturer.
The ideal is to charge electric cars at night unless they can benefit from electricity produced by your solar panels!

Normal charging with a home charge point: 4-to-6 hours

It is possible to have a charging station for domestic electric vehicles installed at your home. Some electricity providers offer to install a system designed to recharge electric cars at their customers’ homes: a “wall box”.
For a budget of £300.00 to £1,000.00, charging time is reduced almost by half. This makes it the cheapest and the easiest solution to put in place. Beware though, it is sometimes necessary to increase the power of the electrical supply (re-wiring with heavier cable to the house), which can increase the bill.

 

 

There is a distinct lack of thought going into the whole issue of electric power.

 

If what happens in your third paragraph & the mains "Leccy" goes "Phut" due to over demand your "leccy" motor vehicle on charge becomes a liability

Edited by X Alan W

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2 hours ago, Machpoint005 said:

About 400 from Manchester, which is the UK's 3rd busiest airport, so likely to be a few thousand altogether. 

See post#14

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19 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Where I think the real conflict is going to come is in the centre of cities like London. They are looking at banning land based residents from using wood burning stoves and it is just a matter of time before diesel cars get banned, are these people, particularly around canal areas, just going to sit on their hands and say yes that is fine we don't mind all of these smoky narrowboats who pay no local Council Taxes being exempt from the legislation that will apply to us land based residents. Somehow I don't think so. If they are forced to live by these rules, you can be pretty sure that they are going to insist that we do as well. As a CC'er I can go an moor up in the middle of nowhere and light my coal fire, but someone trying to keep warm in the centre of London if they ban wood/coal fires is going to struggle since it isn't something they are able to 'discretely' do, and as soon as they light their fire, the surrounding land based residents will be straight on to the phone to an enforcement department.

Exactly this ^^^^^^ virtual greenie

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5 hours ago, Heartland said:

How practical are electric boat engines in tackling all boating conditions. I would be interested to know. With road technology and improved batteries there is certainly enough power for the general needs of the car driver, but for the boater has such technology been transferred across. It is alright for a trip boat to pass through Dudley Tunnel, day in and day out, but how would such  type of craft fare on the tidal Trent, on the Severn to Worcester or Stourport or indeed against the normal flow on the Llangollen. 

I will let you know when i finished my second electric boat conversion! The first works fine and charges the batteries using solar, the second well it much bigger so has lots ,more solar and I am sure it will all work out well in the long run

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18 hours ago, X Alan W said:

See post#14

Unlike half the population of England. I am not fixated on Heathrow/Gatwick/Stansted. There are many other UK airports, both international and regional. 

I have heard that in terms of passengers' places of residence, Manchester is the biggest Scottish airport. 

None of which affects the accuracy of my "few thousand" take-offs a day.

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5 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

Unlike half the population of England. I am not fixated on Heathrow/Gatwick/Stansted. There are many other UK airports, both international and regional. 

I have heard that in terms of passengers' places of residence, Manchester is the biggest Scottish airport. 

None of which affects the accuracy of my "few thousand" take-offs a day.

Which all adds to the  pollution along with military bases & the ports & thousands of trucks traversing the roads of the UK the size of the fuel bill used by UK's favorite trucking company covered in a tv program +they have ships & aircraft just seems if you are a fringe user you get the might of legislation fall on you while the BIG polluters get watered down restrictions

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On 18/08/2018 at 11:56, peterboat said:

The problem is we all make emissions and the clean up has to start everywhere at the same time otherwise groups point and say unfair. I have started to convert my boat to electric drive because the writing has been on the wall for years fro diesels, the best a boat can be is euro IV most arnt even that clean so get the sails and paddles out people..............................

Electric propulsions doesn't help the overall pollution issue. It just moves the pollution from your exhaust pipe to the power station. The only exception is from renewable generated electricity which is a small % at present.

How about water cooled exhaust as you see in seagoing boats ? The exhaust gas is washed by the cooling water and most particles go (harmlessly ?)into the sea instead of the atmosphere.

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5 minutes ago, yabasayo said:

Electric propulsions doesn't help the overall pollution issue. It just moves the pollution from your exhaust pipe to the power station. The only exception is from renewable generated electricity which is a small % at present.

How about water cooled exhaust as you see in seagoing boats ? The exhaust gas is washed by the cooling water and most particles go (harmlessly ?)into the sea instead of the atmosphere.

Mainly because a 2 foot deep muddy ditch full of leaves etc tends to block the water inlet filters in short-shrift.

There are some boats which are raw-water cooled but they are by far the minority.

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2 hours ago, yabasayo said:

renewable generated electricity which is a small % at present.

In fact, renewables accounted for 29% of generation last year, which with nuclear at 21% means 50% of mains electricity cane from non-polluting sources.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/wind-solar-overtake-nuclear-electricity-source-uk-first-time-renewable-energy-a8281656.html

  • Greenie 1

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I'm not sure that nuclear can be described as non polluting.

Irrespective of that, purely electric canal boats are a long way off if feasable at all. The charging infrastructure required would be massive and cost tens of millions. 

  • Greenie 2

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On 05/10/2018 at 10:42, yabasayo said:

Electric propulsions doesn't help the overall pollution issue. It just moves the pollution from your exhaust pipe to the power station. The only exception is from renewable generated electricity which is a small % at present.

How about water cooled exhaust as you see in seagoing boats ? The exhaust gas is washed by the cooling water and most particles go (harmlessly ?)into the sea instead of the atmosphere.

Its strange but true 3300 watts of solar make for a very cheap boat to run!! I dont plug it in and dont need to pollute and kill marine life with dirty diesel emissions! The nox from your diesel exhaust will mix with water. and produce a weak nitric acid, add all the boats together and your exhaust will kill the canal and rot your boat away to boot!!! really clean that isnt it?

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On 05/10/2018 at 13:32, BruceinSanity said:

In fact, renewables accounted for 29% of generation last year, which with nuclear at 21% means 50% of mains electricity cane from non-polluting sources.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/wind-solar-overtake-nuclear-electricity-source-uk-first-time-renewable-energy-a8281656.html

Nuclear is not pollution free.  Thousands of tons of nuclear waste has been buried and continues to be buried in Cumbria. Not only stuff from UK but imported. This stuff remains toxic and highly dangerous for thousands if not millions of years. There is a constant search for other 'suitable' sites to dump this stuff, mainly in the north of England.  When Calder Hall (first nuclear power station) was opened with much fanfare we were promised cheap if not free electricity.  The same promises now tell us nuclear is safe and clean.  Go for solar and tidal turbine development.

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