Rank these boat builders!

[Robbo]

4 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Go and look at some boats, compare them.  Build your own hands on knowledge of what you want.

Ditto this....  ^^^^^^

[Athy]

Sage words, Dora. But let's not denigrate Ivan and Alice's commitment to carefully researching their purchase.

Your last line is spot on - but I think they are planning to visit marinas soon, so they'll be able to compare the real thing with their academic calculations.

[rusty69]

If the internet had been around when we bought our boat,and I had posted the ad on a forum, I am convinced we would have been talked out of it.

 

 

 

 

[doratheexplorer]

Just now, Athy said:

Sage words, Dora. But let's not denigrate Ivan and Alice's commitment to carefully researching their purchase.

Your last line is spot on - but I think they are planning to visit marinas soon, so they'll be able to compare the real thing with their academic calculations.

It's better to research than to just buy with no thought but the results of this research seems to be so out of kilter with reality that it may lead Ivan to conclude that a Liverpool boat is of higher quality than a Hudson, or that a 1976 Calcutt Boat is worth more than a 2006 Tim Tyler Boat.

[alan_fincher]

There are 9 Harborough boats currently on "the Duck", none priced at more than £40K, and none built this century.
 

Where on earth 4 boats built with an average date of 2008, and average value of over £70K has come from, I can't imagine.

 

Is the latest list a wind up, or has the spreadsheet juggling gone horribly wrong, and failed some basic checking?

 

[doratheexplorer]

My advice would be to go, today, to Northamptonshire and have a look round one or two of the big marinas which let you look at as many boats as you want.  Braunston and Whilton spring to mind.  Not with any real expectation of buying one, but just to see what there is,

[WotEver]

17 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Also your average price is massively skewed...

Better in this instance to go for Median as opposed to Average or Mean. 

[doratheexplorer]

1 minute ago, WotEver said:

Better in this instance to go for Median as opposed to Average or Mean. 

Maybe, but if there's only 3 boats and 2 are massively overpriced London boats with residential moorings?

[WotEver]

5 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Maybe, but if there's only 3 boats and 2 are massively overpriced London boats with residential moorings?

Well yes, no system is perfect

[Lysander]

"27 - Aqualine - 5 - £40,778 - 1998"

I, too, am somewhat baffled by this list. Aqualine did not start building narrowboats until 2004 and on Apolloduck there are none for sale with a build date before 2006. Something is amiss with your data - I should ditch this list entirely!

[MtB]

1 hour ago, alan_fincher said:

Is the latest list a wind up, or has the spreadsheet juggling gone horribly wrong, and failed some basic checking?

 

I too am beginning to wonder if the op is for real or just here for the wind up. 

[70liveaboard]

2 hours ago, doratheexplorer said:

It's better to research than to just buy with no thought but the results of this research seems to be so out of kilter with reality that it may lead Ivan to conclude that a Liverpool boat is of higher quality than a Hudson, or that a 1976 Calcutt Boat is worth more than a 2006 Tim Tyler Boat.

Why is a Hudson better than a Liverpool boat?

 

Which builder uses the most steel in the makeup of the boat ?

 

Who has been building longer, 'sold to the trade' the larger percentage ?    ('sold to the trade', massive, but not even considered by the buying public)

 

Which builders prices maintain or increase with time ?

 

But again, it comes down to names..

 

Its ordinary punters that make the names, not the trade. Talk to the trade and the story is different.

 

Solid well made boats are known in the trade.

 

There will always be the ones that buyers raise to a status, in some cases, not earned. Then its 'keep up with the Jones's' for those types of people. The sensible ones buy better and sell for virtually no loss, indeed gain, in many cases. The sensible ones are quieter, the others are much louder and need to brag, if only to avoid people saying 'wait till you sell it'   investment will look much worse in most cases. But ask the person, after that loss and.. "oh I don't mind, it was worth the hit just to own one"... To 'own one what'... Steel narrowboat, same onboard comforts, same spec in most cases, same or similar 'engines, central heating system, plumbing, electrics' etc.

Same places to go, things to see, only one does it with a return, the other does it at a loss.

I know which side I sit, boating has cost me very little since my initial input.. That input (materials) was all trade and the labour (for me) free (just my spare time), so very little at all, in comparison.

 

The advice of a forum is usually half a dozen people (usually back slappers, same names) that can't quite agree unless of course they own the same builder type. Then of course their's is the best. Just human nature, for that type of person.

Whereas hundreds of boats are sold per month at the right time of year. So hundreds of better placed punters with advice..

If your looking for an investment that may return you a reasonable price when you decide to move on in life (or even better price), then I would recommend you buy sensibly. If your a 'got to keep some type of self made image up', buy based on name and take the hit when you resell.

 

A broker will tell you one week the Hudson he has in, is renowned. Whereas a month later, provided he sold his Hudson, the boat that has just come in, for arguments sake is a John White, that this boat is now a better buy, as its solidly built and far more affordable, oh! what about the Hudson you had in, "a quiet word between you and me, he's a little overated"..

Brokers swing with the sale and where he thinks people's perceived interest is. That is the correct way to sell, if your in the broker business.

 

I can usually tell, which type of customer will buy which type and make of boat. If your a builder/seller, its your business to know. In boating its very easy, in many cases to do just that. Similar with cars.

 

Edit, but one thing I would agree with others on, is your list is, well, no.. not really.

But that is my opinion, and mine is different to his, who is different to theirs, that are different to those, which.................. well you get my drift.

Edited August 18, 2018 by 70liveaboard

[doratheexplorer]

1 hour ago, 70liveaboard said:

Why is a Hudson better than a Liverpool boat?

 

Which builder uses the most steel in the makeup of the boat ?

 

Who has been building longer, 'sold to the trade' the larger percentage ?    ('sold to the trade', massive, but not even considered by the buying public)

 

Which builders prices maintain or increase with time ?

 

But again, it comes down to names..

 

Its ordinary punters that make the names, not the trade. Talk to the trade and the story is different.

 

Solid well made boats are known in the trade.

 

There will always be the ones that buyers raise to a status, in some cases, not earned. Then its 'keep up with the Jones's' for those types of people. The sensible ones buy better and sell for virtually no loss, indeed gain, in many cases. The sensible ones are quieter, the others are much louder and need to brag, if only to avoid people saying 'wait till you sell it'   investment will look much worse in most cases. But ask the person, after that loss and.. "oh I don't mind, it was worth the hit just to own one"... To 'own one what'... Steel narrowboat, same onboard comforts, same spec in most cases, same or similar 'engines, central heating system, plumbing, electrics' etc.

Same places to go, things to see, only one does it with a return, the other does it at a loss.

I know which side I sit, boating has cost me very little since my initial input.. That input (materials) was all trade and the labour (for me) free (just my spare time), so very little at all, in comparison.

 

The advice of a forum is usually half a dozen people (usually back slappers, same names) that can't quite agree unless of course they own the same builder type. Then of course their's is the best. Just human nature, for that type of person.

Whereas hundreds of boats are sold per month at the right time of year. So hundreds of better placed punters with advice..

If your looking for an investment that may return you a reasonable price when you decide to move on in life (or even better price), then I would recommend you buy sensibly. If your a 'got to keep some type of self made image up', buy based on name and take the hit when you resell.

 

A broker will tell you one week the Hudson he has in, is renowned. Whereas a month later, provided he sold his Hudson, the boat that has just come in, for arguments sake is a John White, that this boat is now a better buy, as its solidly built and far more affordable, oh! what about the Hudson you had in, "a quiet word between you and me, he's a little overated"..

Brokers swing with the sale and where he thinks people's perceived interest is. That is the correct way to sell, if your in the broker business.

 

I can usually tell, which type of customer will buy which type and make of boat. If your a builder/seller, its your business to know. In boating its very easy, in many cases to do just that. Similar with cars.

 

Edit, but one thing I would agree with others on, is your list is, well, no.. not really.

But that is my opinion, and mine is different to his, who is different to theirs, that are different to those, which.................. well you get my drift.

I don't even know where to start with this.  Are you just being deliberately contrary? 

 

The point of what people (including me) are saying is that Ivan's list is hopelessly misleading.  Starting an argument about which boat is better is unlikely to be any help to him.  Maybe you could start a poll to see whether people think a Hudson or a Liverpool is the better boat?

 

Incidentally, I don't own a Hudson or anything like that.

[rusty69]

8 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

1 hour ago, 70liveaboard said:

 

I don't even know where to start with this.  Are you just being deliberately contrary? 

Blimey.I'm surprised you read it.War and peace would have been quicker!

[70liveaboard]

10 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

I don't even know where to start with this.  Are you just being deliberately contrary? 

 

The point of what people (including me) are saying is that Ivan's list is hopelessly misleading.  Starting an argument about which boat is better is unlikely to be any help to him.  Maybe you could start a poll to see whether people think a Hudson or a Liverpool is the better boat?

 

Incidentally, I don't own a Hudson or anything like that.

I think if you read your own post, you know.. 'Out of kilter, may lead to him believing a Liverpool is better than Hudson'.

You infer that to believe liverpool is better is wrong, so I was simply asking for you to clarify why you thought that him being lead that way, would be wrong in some way.

 

And I knew where to start with your post, its pretty clear what you infer there.

Edited August 18, 2018 by 70liveaboard

[doratheexplorer]

5 minutes ago, 70liveaboard said:

I think if you read your own post, you know.. 'Out of kilter, may lead to him believing a Liverpool is better than Hudson'.

You infer that to believe liverpool is better is wrong, so I was simply asking for you to clarify why you thought that him being lead that way, would be wrong in some way.

 

And I knew where to start with your post, its pretty clear what you infer there.

Do you believe a typical Liverpool boat is better than a typical Hudson boat?  If so, why? 

 

Do you have a boat?  If so, who made it?

 

[70liveaboard]

Just now, doratheexplorer said:

Do you believe a typical Liverpool boat is better than a typical Hudson boat?  If so, why? 

 

Do you have a boat?  If so, who made it?

 

Lets get clear first, I asked you why you thought a Liverpool wasn't as good as Hudson. Again quote' out of kilter with reality'.

You answer that and I'll start on why I believe that may not be the case.. Give me your reality and what it is based on. I'll give you mine of 40yrs in the industry. But it will only be my view.

Base it on steel spec and makeup of the boat itself, weld types etc.. Lets keep it hull only, for now.

 

Yes I own a boat..

[doratheexplorer]

4 minutes ago, 70liveaboard said:

Lets get clear first, I asked you why you thought a Liverpool wasn't as good as Hudson. Again quote' out of kilter with reality'.

You answer that and I'll start on why I believe that may not be the case.. Give me your reality and what it is based on. I'll give you mine of 40yrs in the industry. But it will only be my view.

Base it on steel spec and makeup of the boat itself, weld types etc.. Lets keep it hull only, for now.

 

Yes I own a boat..

You seem to be taking this very personally.  I was pointing out that the list was out of kilter with reality.  There are lots of reasons why.  Some of them have been given.  I have literally no interest in starting an argument with you about who makes the better boat - I was trying to help the person who started this thread.  In my opinion, a Hudson is a higher quality boat.  If you disagree, then that's totally ok by me.  It doesn't change the fact that the list is misleading.  I have better things to do than list all the reasons for my opinion. 

 

Enjoy the rest of your day. 

[70liveaboard]

1 minute ago, doratheexplorer said:

You seem to be taking this very personally.  I was pointing out that the list was out of kilter with reality.  There are lots of reasons why.  Some of them have been given.  I have literally no interest in starting an argument with you about who makes the better boat - I was trying to help the person who started this thread.  In my opinion, a Hudson is a higher quality boat.  If you disagree, then that's totally ok by me.  It doesn't change the fact that the list is misleading.  I have better things to do than list all the reasons for my opinion. 

 

Enjoy the rest of your day. 

My post was long and only the first part aimed at you (the questions), ie. the 'out of kilter with reality' and 'could conclude that'.... Why you thought that.

The rest of my post was 'in general', aimed at the OP and only my view.

And I am certainly not arguing or taking anything personally. I was just curious to know why you believe Hudson is better and why thinking otherwise would be out of kilter with reality. Whatever that reality is! or came from.

Because that's the way it read.

 

This is the problem on this forum and others. It is our views, not the actual truth.. The way you wrote the post is clearly pointing towards an outcome, i.e. you believe Hudson is a better builder. Then just say that. Don't infer that he may conclude that Liverpool is better and that this isn't the normal thinking, or correct, based on some reality that exists only in certain buyers minds or on this forum. It is just your/their view.

 

Maybe I read it wrong, but it infer's that, to me at least.

Enjoy your day too.

 

[Athy]

9 minutes ago, 70liveaboard said:

. Don't infer that he may conclude that Liverpool is better

 

I've been reading your (and everyone else's) posts and I'm slightly confused. From whom should Dora not infer that?

[jetzi]

I'm so sorry everyone, I messed up the spreadsheet completely and in more ways than one! Human error - in my defense it was late last night. Goes to show how valuable a bit of inside knowledge is. It's obvious to an seasoned boater that Harborough could not have such a young average age, but I just went with it!

To remind, these are the 298 narrowboats I found on Apollo Duck, that are over 49 feet long and asking more than 10 000 GBP. The process was automated and it is dependent on the data that advertisers enter - if they spell a builders name wrong or fill the wrong thing in the wrong place, that can cause slight deviations. However, over the sample size we're talking about it should average out somewhat. And of course, these are asking prices, not what the boats actually fetch. But it gives some kind of guide.

I've also added a median, as someone pointed out the mean price may be misleading. I only included builders that have at least 3 boats for sale - there were 140 unique manufacturers in total.

 

The correct list is this:
 

 

5 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

Please provide links to 4 Harborough Marine built boats that have an average selling price of over £70K, and an average build date of 2008.

That beggars belief, as Harborough Marine have not built any boats in decades, I think.

 

Harborough Marine as you see now actually has an average asking price of 34389 and an average build date of 1986.

 

 

4 hours ago, doratheexplorer said:

you're not really paying for the boat, you're paying for the mooring near London.

I filtered out boats that came with a mooring. Therefore London boats that are overpriced because they come with a mooring do not count towards the averages.

 

 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Athy said:

Your last line is spot on - but I think they are planning to visit marinas soon, so they'll be able to compare the real thing with their academic calculations.

Indeed, thank you Athy, we will be visiting marinas soon and hopefully now know a few of the names in the trade!

 

 

 

[70liveaboard]

16 minutes ago, Athy said:

I've been reading your (and everyone else's) posts and I'm slightly confused. From whom should Dora not infer that?

[ this research seems to be so out of kilter with reality that it may lead Ivan to conclude that a Liverpool boat is of higher quality than a Hudson, or that a 1976 Calcutt Boat is worth more than a 2006 Tim Tyler Boat ]

 

That is what I was pointing out, no need to be confused.

 

Just why he believes that 'reality' not sure who's, has it that this is wrong, that Liverpool boats are in some way inferior to Hudson. Asking to point out why he thinks that. I would ask others to do the same, taking away any perceived hierarchy of builder.

 

As for the OP, just winding up I think, not sure, but looks like that. He would be a 'timewaster' to a broker. Not that they are, but the way he is going about it is not great. He already missed out on what was probably a perfectly good boat made by a very good builder, but not because of advice or indeed lack of it, more about budget I feel.

Every buyer has eyes for boats that are above their ability to buy. Know where your at budget wise, then go buy..

Edited August 18, 2018 by 70liveaboard

[mrsmelly]

28 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

I'm so sorry everyone, I messed up the spreadsheet completely and in more ways than one! Human error - in my defense it was late last night. Goes to show how valuable a bit of inside knowledge is. It's obvious to an seasoned boater that Harborough could not have such a young average age, but I just went with it!

To remind, these are the 298 narrowboats I found on Apollo Duck, that are over 49 feet long and asking more than 10 000 GBP. The process was automated and it is dependent on the data that advertisers enter - if they spell a builders name wrong or fill the wrong thing in the wrong place, that can cause slight deviations. However, over the sample size we're talking about it should average out somewhat. And of course, these are asking prices, not what the boats actually fetch. But it gives some kind of guide.

I've also added a median, as someone pointed out the mean price may be misleading. I only included builders that have at least 3 boats for sale - there were 140 unique manufacturers in total.

 

The correct list is this:
 

 

 

Harborough Marine as you see now actually has an average asking price of 34389 and an average build date of 1986.

 

 

I filtered out boats that came with a mooring. Therefore London boats that are overpriced because they come with a mooring do not count towards the averages.

 

 

 

 

 

Indeed, thank you Athy, we will be visiting marinas soon and hopefully now know a few of the names in the trade!

 

 

 

As I and others have already said its the Fitout that suits you that will determine which boat you buy. I have owned a Hudson I at present own my second colecraft. The facts are that the steelwork and fit out of the Hudson was simply superb and built like a tank BUT both the wife and I prefer this particular colecraft to live on for a whole raft of reasons. My fave boat after this one was our Horsley Quenet a make most people on this forum have never heard of. The only way to find your boat is physicaly and you will know it's the one when you first walk onboard ?

[alan_fincher]

34 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

 

 

Thanks - Your analysis now looks credible - it certainly didn't before!

34 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

 

 

 

 

[jetzi]

23 minutes ago, 70liveaboard said:

As for the OP, just winding up I think, not sure, but looks like that. He would be a 'timewaster' to a broker. Not that they are, but the way he is going about it is not great. He already missed out on what was probably a perfectly good boat made by a very good builder, but not because of advice or indeed lack of it, more about budget I feel.

Every buyer has eyes for boats that are above their ability to buy. Know where your at budget wise, then go buy

I'm sorry that you feel I'm winding you up, I'm really not intending to. If anyone feels particularly offended by our posts please feel free to ignore them. I'm hoping that by the time we get to a broker we'll know enough to not waste their time too much.

Which boat are you referring to, that we missed out on?

 

As far as our budget, I've explained elsewhere that although 35K is what we can easily raise, we're also saving hard and this budget will increase each month. This is also why we're not in a frantic hurry to buy and we're just learning, viewing and keeping our eyes open for a bargain. 35K is our ideal budget, but we're looking between 25 and 45. It also helps to look a little outside your budget to see what you miss out on by not saving more, and also negotiation seems pretty standard in this business.

 

1 minute ago, alan_fincher said:

Thanks - Your analysis now looks credible - it certainly didn't before!

Yes!! Well spotted and thank you for pointing it out. Like I say to someone inexperienced none of the names mean anything to you.