Johny London Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 Those of you who followed my epic "new batteries - problem" thread, might remember that I mentioned a company I found called Aceleron. They are all about re-purposing lithium batteries https://www.aceleronltd.com/ I wrote to them some time ago, to express an interest and inquire regarding suitable batteries for us boaters. I have received an email from them saying that they have a production run of 12v leisure batteries scheduled for March, and would like to talk with me regarding getting them out to boaters. I expect to have a chat with them next week to find out more - actually they are in Hayes (London) and by coincidence that is where I am right now so a phone conversation could well turn into a meeting if I have time. Your thoughts please, and any questions, also any potential takers/test pilots? I know many of you are concerned about safety as well as real world performance. They were talking about pricing them at standard leisure battery price, but I will find out more of course. The future awaits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsmelly Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 three things have always sprung to my mind in order of importance Fire risk ( Could be a deal breaker insurance wise ) How to charge them Price? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 3 minutes ago, mrsmelly said: three things have always sprung to my mind in order of importance Fire risk ( Could be a deal breaker insurance wise ) How to charge them Price? Well this is very interesting BUT, Fire risk depends mainly of the effectiveness of the charging management hardware and software. For prices the same as LA leisure batteries I can't imagine they are going to be offering much in the way of charge management. This is probably the reason they are so cheap. Charging the things will be left to the boater to figure out. Ok a quick look at the website and it looks as though I'm right. Not a peep about how to charge them. AFAICS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johny London Posted February 16, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 Good stuff guys - I will be asking about all this and trying to explain exactly what it is that we need. A"drop in" replacement that looks after itself is surely the holy grail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, Johny London said: Good stuff guys - I will be asking about all this and trying to explain exactly what it is that we need. A"drop in" replacement that looks after itself is surely the holy grail. I'd say the issues to raise are: 1) Can they be connected directly to a car-type alternator delivering a charge voltage of 14.4 to 14.8? 2) If not, what happens when some muppet or other inevitably connects one directly to a car-type alternator? 3) Can they be charged from a typical solar panel installation? 4) If not, what happens when some muppet or other inevitably.... does? 5) What happens if you try to charge one at below zero temperature? 6) What happens if you overcharge one? 7) Where do you get them from?! 8) How do you determine the state of charge? 9) How do you know when to stop charging (given they catch fire when overcharged)? Edited February 16, 2018 by Mike the Boilerman To add No 8) and 9) 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 (edited) The recommendations I have read are to charge to only 85% capacity to maximise the battery life, and reduce the risk of explosion - apparently an overcharged battery vents 'flames'. I don't think I'll be an 'early adopter' for the technology. I cannot yet see 'plug & play' replacement of FLA batteries and charging by standard chargers / alternators being safe. Venting with flame is connected with elevated temperature. A fully charged battery has a lower thermal runaway temperature and will vent sooner than one that is partially charged. All lithium-based batteries are safer at a lower charge, and this is why authorities will mandate air shipment of Li-ion at 30 percent state-of-charge rather than at full charge. (See BU-704a: Shipping Lithium-based Batteries by Air.). Estimating SoC by reading the voltage of a charging battery is impractical; measuring the open circuit voltage (OCV) after the battery has rested for a few hours is a better indicator. Li-ion cannot absorb overcharge. When fully charged, the charge current must be cut off. A continuous trickle charge would cause plating of metallic lithium and compromise safety. To minimize stress, keep the lithium-ion battery at the peak cut-off as short as possible. Many battery users are unaware that consumer-grade lithium-ion batteries cannot be charged below 0°C (32°F). Although the pack appears to be charging normally, plating of metallic lithium can occur on the anode during a sub-freezing charge. This is permanent and cannot be removed with cycling. Batteries with lithium plating are more vulnerable to failure if exposed to vibration or other stressful conditions. Advanced chargers (Cadex) prevent charging Li-ion below freezing. How hot does it get in your engine 'ole during a days hard running ? Charging at above 50 degrees C they lose capacity, vent & swell and chargers should be programmed to switch off at 'elevated' temperatures Lithium-ion performs well at elevated temperatures but prolonged exposure to heat reduces longevity. Charging and discharging at elevated temperatures is subject to gas generation that might cause a cylindrical cell to vent and a pouch cell to swell. Many chargers prohibit charging above 50°C (122°F). Edited February 16, 2018 by Alan de Enfield 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsmelly Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 before you all bollock me I know I know I shouldn't but I did watch a " Ripp off Britain " programme quite recently extoling the virtues of several items running off L.i batteries and there have been loads of cases of stuff bursting in to flames whilst charging and several when just in use on such as those two wheeled standy up things kids and numpties ride on. For me batteries that have a chance of doing that are a total non starter.................Get it Non starter?................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbo Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, Johny London said: Those of you who followed my epic "new batteries - problem" thread, might remember that I mentioned a company I found called Aceleron. They are all about re-purposing lithium batteries https://www.aceleronltd.com/ I wrote to them some time ago, to express an interest and inquire regarding suitable batteries for us boaters. I have received an email from them saying that they have a production run of 12v leisure batteries scheduled for March, and would like to talk with me regarding getting them out to boaters. I expect to have a chat with them next week to find out more - actually they are in Hayes (London) and by coincidence that is where I am right now so a phone conversation could well turn into a meeting if I have time. Your thoughts please, and any questions, also any potential takers/test pilots? I know many of you are concerned about safety as well as real world performance. They were talking about pricing them at standard leisure battery price, but I will find out more of course. The future awaits. What type of Lithium Battery? BMS? And how wired? Max/recommended charge/discharge rate. min/max charge/discharge temperature Edited February 16, 2018 by Robbo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom and Bex Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 Could be interested but only if the price was right and safety could be assured. Would rather hear about more real world experience first. Keep us informed how you get on. Main information I would want to know is how to set up for charging from multiple sources including engine alternator and solar, any maintenance requirements e.g. cell balancing etc, maximum discharge current, and any safety system/precautions needed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBiscuits Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 Got to admit I am keeping an eye on the Tesla PowerWall. 13.5 KWh of juicy goodness in a small package. 50V internals are a beggar to charge off the alternator though ... but the inverter can run while cruising so charge from 240V. They are also designed to stand outside (IP65? rated) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 7 minutes ago, Tom and Bex said: Could be interested but only if the price was right and safety could be assured. What price would be right for you? And what level of safety assurance would you need? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Bob Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 1 hour ago, Tom and Bex said: Could be interested but only if the price was right and safety could be assured. Would rather hear about more real world experience first. Keep us informed how you get on. Main information I would want to know is how to set up for charging from multiple sources including engine alternator and solar, any maintenance requirements e.g. cell balancing etc, maximum discharge current, and any safety system/precautions needed. I'm in a similar position. ditto - "Main information I would want to know is how to set up for charging from multiple sources including engine alternator and solar"...over a range of temperatures ....with a Sterling AtoB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matty40s Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 There's interesting and informative article in the latest Dutch barge magazine. An owner on the river soar has just installed a system. The system itself wasn't that expensive, it was the safety installation and calibration experts from down south which took the bulk of the money Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBiscuits Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 2 minutes ago, matty40s said: There's interesting and informative article in the latest Dutch barge magazine. An owner on the river soar has just installed a system. The system itself wasn't that expensive, it was the safety installation and calibration experts from down south which took the bulk of the money That would make sense. Any details of the charge controller used? That tends to be the magic expensive bit with lithium batteries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoominPapa Posted February 17, 2018 Report Share Posted February 17, 2018 I've been getting regular lifts in a Nissan LEAF whose owner is a bit of a geek, and has a tablet installed connected to the car systems and displaying real-time data on the batteries. Whilst the 80-90 mile range on the LEAF is pretty marginal, it's very interesting to see how the battery pack performs, and it would make a superb boat battery. Fast charge (We saw 40Kw on a service station fast charger) and good for high discharges when needed. Long cycle life, and no problems with not fully recharging. In fact, it's better to not fully charge. The LEAF charging system has a button to press if you really want 100% charge for a particularly "long" journey. The default cutoff is 85% because that's kinder to the batteries. As a livaboard, I would certainly consider spending two or three times the cost of a decent lead-acid bank for a properly engineered Lithium bank, but it would need to be properly engineered, with a suitable smart charge/discharge system. Such a thing in certainly possible and modern power electronics could convert the output of an alternator and/or solar array with no problem. You'd likely need the battery system to be in complete charge though: no more paralleling batteries and alternator. The batteries will have an input terminal and an output terminal and be responsible for all power flows in the system. I'd also probably want the batteries in a steel box, vented overboard, like Boeing had to do on the 787 after a few self-imolation events. MP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nb Innisfree Posted February 17, 2018 Report Share Posted February 17, 2018 Like Tesla Nissan plan to recycle their EV car batts as home power storage when they reach less than 75% SoC when there is plenty of life left in them for that purpose. Prob is batts are lasting too long, they have an 8year/100k miles warranty, replaced if they fall to less than 9 bars (out of 12) Nissan say they replace somethng like several faulty batts per annum worldwide though I would think over the next few years more will be available as the Leaf model passes its 10th year of production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBiscuits Posted February 17, 2018 Report Share Posted February 17, 2018 4 minutes ago, nb Innisfree said: Nissan say they replace somethng like several faulty batts per annum worldwide Is there a missing word here? That sounds ridiculously low worldwide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted February 17, 2018 Report Share Posted February 17, 2018 3 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said: Is there a missing word here? That sounds ridiculously low worldwide. I think the point was that there needs to be planned failure of the components in cars in order to make some profit for the manufacturers. They sell the car in the first place at a loss generally, in order to create a demand for spare parts which are sold at a sensible profit. The batteries lasting too long is therefore a commercial problem for the car manufacturer, as currently they don't fail sufficiently frequently to make money out of flogging full priced replacements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nb Innisfree Posted February 17, 2018 Report Share Posted February 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said: Is there a missing word here? That sounds ridiculously low worldwide. Yes it does but I think that's correct, that is replacement under warranty which, like all warranties, has certain conditions. However Nissan and Tesla are confident enough to give these warranties, some car's batts are reported to be still going strong after well in advance of 100k miles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nb Innisfree Posted February 17, 2018 Report Share Posted February 17, 2018 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said: I think the point was that there needs to be planned failure of the components in cars in order to make some profit for the manufacturers. They sell the car in the first place at a loss generally, in order to create a demand for spare parts which are sold at a sensible profit. The batteries lasting too long is therefore a commercial problem for the car manufacturer, as currently they don't fail sufficiently frequently to make money out of flogging full priced replacements. Tesla have problems with production of their new model 3 due to shortage of batteries, like Nissan they are reliant on Hitachi or Panasonic? who they sold battery production to. Battery production is the bottleneck. Edited February 17, 2018 by nb Innisfree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBiscuits Posted February 17, 2018 Report Share Posted February 17, 2018 (edited) https://www.lithiumion-batteries.com/lithium-marine-batteries.php I came across this company selling 12V drop in replacement LiFePO4 batteries with all the charge controls built in. As long as you can get 14.6V into them they will fully charge. 100% DoD over 2000 cycles, expected normal usage over 5000 cycles. It all sounds too good to be true - until you look at the prices! Edited February 17, 2018 by TheBiscuits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Bob Posted February 17, 2018 Report Share Posted February 17, 2018 2 hours ago, MoominPapa said: As a livaboard, I would certainly consider spending two or three times the cost of a decent lead-acid bank for a properly engineered Lithium bank, but it would need to be properly engineered, with a suitable smart charge/discharge system. Such a thing in certainly possible and modern power electronics could convert the output of an alternator and/or solar array with no problem. You'd likely need the battery system to be in complete charge though: no more paralleling batteries and alternator. The batteries will have an input terminal and an output terminal and be responsible for all power flows in the system. Going back to the batteries on boats issue.....(me, going back on topic??), I was reading on battery universe IIRC about charging Lithiums and it said dont charge paralleled batteries, but instead disconnect them and charge one, then swop over and charge the other and then reconnect when the voltages are the same (and within a tight tolerance). Wow, that's not going to work on a boat. It would say buy one very large battery (as they seem to come in a range of sizes - based on Ahrs). I am at a bit of loss how they are going to get charged with the variety of charging devices. We have a Victron Combi (with charger), a Victon IP22, a Sterling AtoB (with the abilty to switch back to the alternator - so another charge regime) and two different solar MPPTs. And then we have the starter battery which needs charging as well - maybe a separate start battery is not needed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nb Innisfree Posted February 17, 2018 Report Share Posted February 17, 2018 10 minutes ago, nb Innisfree said: Tesla have problems with production of their new model 3 due to shortage of batteries, like Nissan they are reliant on Hitachi or Panasonic? who they sold battery production to. Battery production is the bottleneck. Ownership of battery production is a bit confusing but I think China have their hand in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBiscuits Posted February 17, 2018 Report Share Posted February 17, 2018 1 minute ago, Dr Bob said: Going back to the batteries on boats issue.....(me, going back on topic??), I was reading on battery universe IIRC about charging Lithiums and it said dont charge paralleled batteries, but instead disconnect them and charge one, then swop over and charge the other and then reconnect when the voltages are the same (and within a tight tolerance). Wow, that's not going to work on a boat. It would say buy one very large battery (as they seem to come in a range of sizes - based on Ahrs). I am at a bit of loss how they are going to get charged with the variety of charging devices. We have a Victron Combi (with charger), a Victon IP22, a Sterling AtoB (with the abilty to switch back to the alternator - so another charge regime) and two different solar MPPTs. And then we have the starter battery which needs charging as well - maybe a separate start battery is not needed? That is supposed to be handled by the charger - you shouldn't need to physically disconnect each battery to charge it. That is why I like the idea of a drop in replacement for a LA battery in the same form factor , just fit and forget. Sadly they are about 10 times the price, not 2 or 3 times the price in the link above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WotEver Posted February 17, 2018 Report Share Posted February 17, 2018 3 minutes ago, Dr Bob said: maybe a separate start battery is not needed? Or maybe the start battery would be best charged by a BtoB fed by the lithiums. If you’re out and about and accidentally flatten your house bank then you’d need to be able to start your engine to recharge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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