Fridge/ Freezers 12 volt. and Inverter for washer.

[canals are us?]

22 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Don’t forget with all this talk of large inverters that whatever you take out of the Batteries has to be put back in. You have a theoretical maximum charge with the two alternators paralleled of 1700W so, allowing for inefficiencies, any 230V load exceeding say 1500A will be depleting the batteries even with the engine running above tickover. 

As well as thinking about inverters you need to also consider what form of battery monitoring you’re going to have. 

I'm hoping that in spring/summer the 380 watts of solar and engine running will be enough, but who knows, depends on if the sun is out! Plan to replace the PWM solar controller for a Bimble solar MPPT. Best I have got out of the solar panels is 15amps.

Been reading up of the smartgauge and the BMV 700 Series and thinking smartgauge  as seems more simplified for me.

I will probably have to replace my pair of 3.5 year old Trojan T105's with a  set of 4, quite possibly ordinary cheapos as I suspect capacity isn't what it was.  Voltage goes down quickly when no charger going and only ever got a 13.8 volt charge and should really get a higher equalisation charge. Does a victron do an equalisation charge? Does the model I'm thinking of buying?

James

Edited January 23, 2018 by canals are us?

[Detling]

I have a victron 3000 combi which uses 2 amps with no load, but mains radios and phone chargers make no difference to that 2A, I have tries power save mode, not much use, as either it stayed asleep when you put  a load on it or it never went to sleep when you turned everything off. I have a 240 volt fridge freezer with a 4 star rated freezer, not common (available) on 12 volt units I have a 240 volt telly and charge a laptop every day (total 130-150 Ah per day). With 600 watts of solar from April to September, unless it is very dull (pouring down), I do not need any extra charging in a day get to 100% by lunch - tea time, from March to November about 1 hour engine required, but by then the heating is increasing the daily total Ah.  When using large power devices Washing Machine etc. run the engine at the same time so the batteries only supply 100A the alternator the other 100A simple.  November to March I usually am plugged in, I went out for Christmas this year and needed 3 hours or so daily engine running, usually when moving, but sat put on Christmas day. To me having 240V 24/7 is a big plus, and the money ( about £300)  you save on the fridge and telly can be better spent on more Solar which will run that inverter and more for most of the year.

[Phil Ambrose]

4 hours ago, peterboat said:

Think I will stick with the 12 volt fridge freezer and no inverter running, to running a 240 volt fridge freezer with inverter, it will save me a fortune in the long run with all those knackered batteries and constant recharging!! and the cost od all that fuel doing it!! nightmare to say the least...................... and then you tell us that is the best way to go ha I thought we all knew that the experts are always wrong look at Brexit .

This sort of sums up my philosophy....... I've never seen the point of taking perfectly good 12v electricity and passing it through an inverter àt a loss to make 230v electricity. 

Phil 

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, canals are us? said:

Been reading up of the smartgauge and the BMV 700 Series and thinking smartgauge  as seems more simplified for me.

If you decide on a SmartGauge it should ideally be coupled with an ammeter; it doesn’t need to be an expensive one. 

 

[Richard10002]

This could open a can of worms but NASA BM2 is preferable to the Smartgauge IMHO.

If you choose to monitor with only a Smartgauge, make sure you are aware of its shortcomings. (Not that the NASA and any other monitor doesn’t have some shortcomings).

[Dr Bob]

9 hours ago, WotEver said:

If you decide on a SmartGauge it should ideally be coupled with an ammeter; it doesn’t need to be an expensive one. 

 

 

8 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

This could open a can of worms but NASA BM2 is preferable to the Smartgauge IMHO.

If you choose to monitor with only a Smartgauge, make sure you are aware of its shortcomings. (Not that the NASA and any other monitor doesn’t have some shortcomings).

Smartgauges look to be nice and simple and Ok for those who dont want to think too much about power management but on the odd occasion they can go badly wrong (MtB.....your go!). I'm not allowed to buy one. If you want to undestand power management ....and it sounds like the OP is in that category....then a Nasa BM2 is a good option. I've just bought a new BMV 713 so I can play with the app in bed and only ever look at Vs and A/Ahrs and never at SoC.

A smartgauge and an ammeter will do fine but will the ammeter be plug and play?  The few threads on setting up the cheap ammeters ex ebay have overloaded my grey matter. If you're happy setting one up and faffing around a lot, then that is the way to go.

[dccruiser]

11 hours ago, canals are us? said:

I'm hoping that in spring/summer the 380 watts of solar and engine running will be enough, but who knows, depends on if the sun is out! Plan to replace the PWM solar controller for a Bimble solar MPPT. Best I have got out of the solar panels is 15amps.

Been reading up of the smartgauge and the BMV 700 Series and thinking smartgauge  as seems more simplified for me.

I will probably have to replace my pair of 3.5 year old Trojan T105's with a  set of 4, quite possibly ordinary cheapos as I suspect capacity isn't what it was.  Voltage goes down quickly when no charger going and only ever got a 13.8 volt charge and should really get a higher equalisation charge. Does a victron do an equalisation charge? Does the model I'm thinking of buying?

James

I use a smartguage together with a BMV702 , 4 x T105's 12volt shorline fridge and freezer, 3kw sterling pure sine inverter, i do have a large capacity washer / dryer , but only use that on a E.H.U. , i have 520 watts of solar going on the roof next month and a twin alternator setup with a smartbank, and it all works very well as a system.

Rick

[peterboat]

10 hours ago, Phil Ambrose said:

This sort of sums up my philosophy....... I've never seen the point of taking perfectly good 12v electricity and passing it through an inverter àt a loss to make 230v electricity. 

Phil 

Same here Phil its amazing but my inverter can be off most of the day and all night therefore saving a whole lot of AHs and all the bother and expense of having to replace them. And of course well charged batteries last longer than discharged ones but what do we Know Phil? we clearly aint "experts" are we? All that time spent in the Army doing battery charging, learning about battery management, generators and field power dont count do they? And you how long have you lived onboard and how many boats have you had to be told that you are doing it wrong, couldnt boil them as soft could you?

[Guest]

Must admit we use the inverter as little as possible for obvious reasons, though do run a fridge freezer off it. Not ideal, even though our inverter is very economical on standby,  and I have always promised myself a 12V f/f except that this winter we have (unusually) been marina bound and living off a generator where the 240v f/f has been a blessing. There is no "one size fits all" and it depends upon one's circumstances. I would prefer a 12V f/f when out and about living off engine/solar power.

[mrsmelly]

1 hour ago, peterboat said:

Same here Phil its amazing but my inverter can be off most of the day and all night therefore saving a whole lot of AHs and all the bother and expense of having to replace them. And of course well charged batteries last longer than discharged ones but what do we Know Phil? we clearly aint "experts" are we? All that time spent in the Army doing battery charging, learning about battery management, generators and field power dont count do they? And you how long have you lived onboard and how many boats have you had to be told that you are doing it wrong, couldnt boil them as soft could you?

Well old sport as a liveaboard of more years than most on here I always go mains. The equipment choice and cost alone are a good enough reason in itself. My combi when nowts running sits at 1 amp draw which is nowt in reality and less than nowt all summer when a bit of solar is going in. My recent mains fridge bought last year is so much better than anything available in 12 volt and a much better size option. Do you still drive a morris series E to go shopping in? they were ideal for cavedweller living 

Edited January 24, 2018 by mrsmelly

[peterboat]

1 minute ago, mrsmelly said:

Well old sport as a liveaboard of more years than most on here I always go mains. The equipment choice and cost alone are a good enough reason in itself. My combi when nowts running sits at 1 amp draw which is nowt in reality and less than nowt all summer when a bit of solar is going in. My recent mains fridge bought last year is so much better than anything available in 12 volt and a much better size option. Do you still drive a morris series E to go shopping in? they were ideal for cavedweller living 

Naw Tim I have a dishwasher auto washer etc etc but realise that all that relies on an inverter!! and they catch fire or break, worse if its a combi you really are up shit creek without a paddle if it breaks! So the fridge freezer are 12 volts makes sense TV can be same now days as the choice is their with the tinternet. If you are on a hookup then does it matter you can have one battery and everything else on 240 volts, but these are boats and as soon as you use it as a boat it all goes wrong you are chasing power all the time.

I bought my fridgefreezer at a show it was well priced and works well I can have a cheaper inverter cos it dont matter and I have no losses turning 240 volts to 12 volts then back again, all big power losses for nowt.

[Stephen Jeavons]

now now children, play nicely

[Phil Ambrose]

2 minutes ago, Stephen Jeavons said:

now now children, play nicely

They are playing nicely, you should be around when they decided to play rough. 

Phil 

[mrsmelly]

10 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Naw Tim I have a dishwasher auto washer etc etc but realise that all that relies on an inverter!! and they catch fire or break, worse if its a combi you really are up shit creek without a paddle if it breaks! So the fridge freezer are 12 volts makes sense TV can be same now days as the choice is their with the tinternet. If you are on a hookup then does it matter you can have one battery and everything else on 240 volts, but these are boats and as soon as you use it as a boat it all goes wrong you are chasing power all the time.

I bought my fridgefreezer at a show it was well priced and works well I can have a cheaper inverter cos it dont matter and I have no losses turning 240 volts to 12 volts then back again, all big power losses for nowt.

DISHWASHER!! AUTOWASHER!! run on an INVERTER  So that's were you all get it wrong. We only run such items as those on our Travel power you silly billy. 

[peterboat]

31 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

DISHWASHER!! AUTOWASHER!! run on an INVERTER  So that's were you all get it wrong. We only run such items as those on our Travel power you silly billy. 

The current cheap inverter 1 kw of solar, 1500ah of full traction batteries and the big alternator handle it easily and leave huge amounts of room around the engine to work on it, travel power how much? kinell that hurt ooh and that hurt even more when the crank pulley fell off

[Dr Bob]

51 minutes ago, peterboat said:

and they catch fire or break, worse if its a combi you really are up shit creek without a paddle if it breaks!

All this talk about inverters failing! You are getting me worried. I'm sure they dont.

......but you're right about Combis. Too many eggs in one basket. We are in the process of rewiring the units at the back of the boat to put in 'separates' so we can run the shore power to the rest of the boat without going through the combi, use the combi as an inverter only and add a Victron Bluesmart IP22 30A (£200) battery charger.....so everything separate...but wiring it such that we can send 240v to the combi so it can be used as a combi if needed. All I need then is a cheap,small inverter as a spare <£100 as a back up in case the big inverter fails....which it hasnt done for 15 years.

Question;  will a quasi sine wave inverter be ok for a fridge? I guess they are taking less than 150W so a small inverter would work as a back up till I have time to go and buy a big one for all the other stuff?

Still like my 240v fridge....in black to match the nice new shinny oven and hob

Edited January 24, 2018 by Dr Bob

[Robbo]

1 hour ago, mrsmelly said:

DISHWASHER!! AUTOWASHER!! run on an INVERTER  So that's were you all get it wrong. We only run such items as those on our Travel power you silly billy. 

No reason not to run washers from an Inverter, its where the inverter gets the power from that's an issue.   With a TP you have to run the engine even if you have enough solar n sun to do a wash or two.

[mrsmelly]

5 minutes ago, Robbo said:

No reason not to run washers from an Inverter, its where the inverter gets the power from that's an issue.   With a TP you have to run the engine even if you have enough solar n sun to do a wash or two.

Very true but as a CONTINUOUS cruiser we move every day when not stuck in a marina in the winter because CART close the system down. So from main engine can do all washing etc, move along the cut and fully charge batteries from the other two alternators. Having had two boats now with a TP and having done it the other way there is no way I would be without a TP. Horses for courses there is of course more than one way to skin a cat.

[WotEver]

33 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Question;  will a quasi sine wave inverter be ok for a fridge?

The only way to know is to try it. I can envisage a compressor being really unhappy with a chopped up square wave but several folk on here post that they use their fridge with a small and cheap inverter so try it and see. 

3 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

Smartgauges look to be nice and simple and Ok for those who dont want to think too much about power management but on the odd occasion they can go badly wrong

No they can’t, sorry. There have been reports of some coming from the factory miscalibrated but that’s not ‘going wrong’, that’s ‘built wrong’. 

[WotEver]

3 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

A smartgauge and an ammeter will do fine but will the ammeter be plug and play?

As compared with any other device that accurately measures current, yes. A BMV has to have a shunt installed just as does a standalone ammeter. A simple ammeter (not one of those all singing all dancing things that Wayne bought) requires zero adjustment, much simpler to set up than a BMV. Zero setup in fact. Just connect the two wires from the shunt plus a fused 12V feed and it works. 

[Robbo]

4 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Very true but as a CONTINUOUS cruiser we move every day when not stuck in a marina in the winter because CART close the system down. So from main engine can do all washing etc, move along the cut and fully charge batteries from the other two alternators. Having had two boats now with a TP and having done it the other way there is no way I would be without a TP. Horses for courses there is of course more than one way to skin a cat.

But if you have a decent size alternator or two and Inverter you basically have a TP.   If I was building a new system without a built in genny then this is the way I would go.

[Phil Ambrose]

Noting Dr Bob loves his a shiny black fridge prompted me to ask if black is a suitable colour for a fridge. 

Phil 

[Dr Bob]

32 minutes ago, WotEver said:

No they can’t, sorry. There have been reports of some coming from the factory miscalibrated but that’s not ‘going wrong’, that’s ‘built wrong’. 

mmmmm!........there is a common word......'wrong'.

[mrsmelly]

32 minutes ago, Robbo said:

But if you have a decent size alternator or two and Inverter you basically have a TP.   If I was building a new system without a built in genny then this is the way I would go.

You would have to have a huge alternator on the domestic bank to run the heaters on an auto washing machine and charge the domestic bank at the same time. The real beauty of the TP is that it gives u 3.5 kva of power which is more than most fitted inverters and at the same time the domestic alternater is using its capacity to charge the battery bank and you can do this say first thing in the morning with batteries down at 12.2 or whatever. If you put a washing machine on when batts down at 12.2 the alternator is screaming to to do both jobs at the same time and the batteries can be unhappy. Stand alone gennie is best but that needs two engines running one for propulsion and one for leccy. TP does it all whilst moving or indeed whilst moored up. For me its a no brainer, others do as they wish.

Edited January 24, 2018 by mrsmelly

[Dr Bob]

3 minutes ago, Phil Ambrose said:

Noting Dr Bob loves his a shiny black fridge prompted me to ask if black is a suitable colour for a fridge. 

Phil 

Mrs Bob wanted a colour coordinated kitchen for the re-fit and although I tried to play the energy efficiency card, you can guess who won. The kitchen does look good though.

The 'shiny' bit helps.

Edited January 24, 2018 by Dr Bob