New batteries - problem

[Alan de Enfield]

57 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

But they are 200Ah each aren’t they? Yes

Slightly heavier per Ah. Yes

What make and model? Varta IIRC. Yes

More Lead is good !!!

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, Dr Bob said:

This question demands a bit of detail in the answer such as info on Voltage and amps ie is it an old (2000-2005 Alternator that cant get to 14V) and are you getting sufficient amps in over the hours of charge - we were lucky to get 30 Ahrs in in the first hour of charge with our old setup when down to 80% Soc. How does the charge vary with engine speed - we are lucky and get full charge even at tickover. When does your charging device go into float mode? Both our Victron and Sterling AtoB go into float too early for my liking.

I know, it includes various types of alternator, generator (suitcase, built in, frame, whispergen CHP etc, solar).

I decided that whilst I have theoretical knowledge of all these, and practical knowledge of commercial types (even Stirling engined CHP), my practical knowledge of the types by boaters is sadly lacking, so best leave the input to others with more practical experience than me.

Edited November 11, 2017 by cuthound
Grandma

[smileypete]

On 11/11/2017 at 12:01, Mike the Boilerman said:

Question 2: How often do you fully charge them, and how are you determining when to stop charging them?

Sounds good, in most cases I'd also add 'what voltage do you charge them up to', and possibly 'how do you charge them' to see whether the charge voltage can be raised it it's too low.

 

On 11/11/2017 at 12:08, Keeping Up said:

The current set is a bank of 4 Exide 115 Ah Dual leisure batteries https://www.tayna.co.uk/Exide-ER550-DUAL-Leisure-Battery-Porta-Power-PP115-P7641.html ... would Exide count as a "decent" brand?

The word Dual puts me off - it almost certainly means they are just re-badged starter batteries. The top looks like it may be removable but it has resisted all my efforts so far.

I found during the summer that in absorption mode they followed the typical "rule of one-third" in that every hour the current reduced to one-third of tis previous value (plus a bit for tail current) and the amp-hour deficit according to the BM2 also reduced to one-third of its earlier value. Thus after taking my usual load of 80-90 Ah, the charging current was roughly:

• After 1 hour, 30 Amps
• After 2 hours, 11 Amps
• After 3 hours, 5 Amps
• After 4 hours, 3 Amps
• After 5 hours, 2.6 Amps
• After 6 hours, 2.5 Amps
• After 7 hours, 2.5 Amps
• After 8 hours, 2.5 Amps

To me this suggests that they are nearly charged after 4 hours, and that after 5-6 hours it merely holds the "status quo"

I can limit the current when equalising, as my bench PSU is a variable-voltage variable-current supply. But I rarely find that the current rises far above the 2.5A figure, after the initial burst of enthusiasm is over.

During the summer we do travel a lot, so roughly two-thirds of the hours I quoted in my regime are a fortunate by-product of cruising.. But the other third (ie about 300 hours this year) represent a colossal waste of diesel! At the moment plans A B and C all look equally attractive (or unattractive) to me.

Those tail current numbers look fine, I'd be very interested to know what the charge voltage is, also any EQ voltages, and how the charging is done (sorry if you've said before, can't remember).

If they're substantially underperforming, my thoughts would be to carefully apply the methods and monitoring of Plan B to your Plan A (ish) batteries. If possible.

If this is successful, all well and good. If not then the same methods used on Trojans should assure much better success.

Edited November 12, 2017 by smileypete

[MtB]

On 12/11/2017 at 12:59, smileypete said:

Sounds good, in most cases I'd also add 'what voltage do you charge them up to', and possibly 'how do you charge them' to see whether the charge voltage can be raised it it's too low.

 

Yes I think what we actually want to know, or more pertinently, what the battery-problem-poster (BPP) to realise or learn, is how critically important charging voltage really is. Back in the day before I learned any details about battery charging, I thought one just put the charger on, and waited for a while. Job done!

We should have a questionaire pinned at the top of any new 'Battery Problems' board that the mods might open for us. Saying something like...

Before you post, please gather the following information. If you don't know how to get it, then by all means post asking how to find it, but this info is essential before anyone can give any meaningful help diagnosing a battery problem.

1) Type of battery. Open cell, sealed, AGM, something else

2) Number of batteries in your bank, and the make, model and age of them

3) Exact make and model of any monitoring device(s) you have. Or say if you have none.

4) The method you use to charge them. Engine alternator, generator and charger, shore line and charger, something else

5) The make and model of your engine alternator, charger, generator etc.

6) The voltage at which your charger charges, assuming you have a voltmeter

7) A brief description of your charging regime, i.e. how long you charge for, how frequently

8) A brief description of how you know when your batteries need to be charged. I.e. when do you start charging?

9) A brief description of how you know when to stop charging them. I.e. how do you decide when they are full?

 

If we got all this stuff in the first post, the detailed questions can follow. Currently, we have to spend 30 posts asking for all this basic stuff and we get it in dribs and drabs before any proper diagnosis can begin.

Edited November 12, 2017 by Mike the Boilerman

[Boredrider]

I think it would also be useful to know the number of banks i.e. domestic, starter, bowthruster   - and how the banks are connected together when charging i.e. switch, relay, VSR, split diode, smartbank.

[MtB]

On 12/11/2017 at 14:52, Boredrider said:

I think it would also be useful to know the number of banks i.e. domestic, starter, bowthruster  

 

It would be useful to know, but the vast majority of cases are people with just starter and domestic, and domestic battery bank problems. Best to keep it simple in the initial round of questions.

 

On 12/11/2017 at 14:52, Boredrider said:

and how the banks are connected together when charging i.e. switch, relay, VSR, split diode, smartbank.

 

Again, this is detail stuff which we don't always need. We only need this info in the cases where charge voltage is too low. If the BPP tells us the charging voltage, if it is low then the investigations as to why will involve requesting this info. Best not to be asking for detailed info like this in the first round of questions, in my opinion. Maybe have it on a list of secondary questions once the basic stuff has been determined.

[smileypete]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Yes I think what we actually want to know, or more pertinently, what the battery-problem-poster (BPP) to realise or learn, is how critically important charging voltage really is. Back in the day before I learned any details about battery charging, I thought one just put the charger on, and waited for a while. Job done!

We should have a questionaire pinned at the top of any new 'Battery Problems' board that the mods might open for us. Saying something like...

Before you post, please gather the following information. If you don't know how to get it, then by all means post asking how to find it, but this info is essential before anyone can give any meaningful help diagnosing a battery problem.

1) Type of battery. Open cell, sealed, AGM, something else

2) Number of batteries in your bank, and the make, model and age of them

3) Exact make and model of any monitoring device(s) you have. Or say if you have none.

4) The method you use to charge them. Engine alternator, generator and charger, shore line and charger, something else

5) The make and model of your engine alternator, charger, generator etc.

6) The voltage at which your charger charges, assuming you have a voltmeter

7) A brief description of your charging regime, i.e. how long you charge for, how frequently

8) A brief description of how you know when your batteries need to be charged. I.e. when do you start charging?

9) A brief description of how you know when to stop charging them. I.e. how do you decide when they are full?

 

If we got all this stuff in the first post, the detailed questions can follow. Currently, we have to spend 30 posts asking for all this basic stuff and we get it in dribs and drabs before any proper diagnosis can begin.

Looks great , the only thing I could think of adding was:

10) A brief description of how the batteries are seen to be underperforming or failing.

And a couple of very minor points - how about mention solar to the list in 4), and mention other possible charge sources in 6)

I'm sure the mods wouldn't mind pinning a copy in the Equipment forum, the topics  'Robust debate - Technical discussions' and 'Power generation' could be unpinned.

I'm sure the list can be tweaked in the light of experience but 'V1' looks good to go.

 

Edited November 12, 2017 by smileypete

[MtB]

On 12/11/2017 at 15:58, smileypete said:

Looks great , the only thing I could think of adding was:

10) A brief description of how the batteries are seen to be underperforming or failing.

And a couple of very minor points - how about mention solar to the list in 4), and mention other possible charge sources in 6)

I'm sure the mods wouldn't mind pinning a copy in the Equipment forum, the topics  'Robust debate - Technical discussions' and 'Power generation' could be unpinned.

I'm sure the list can be tweaked in the light of experience but 'V1' looks good to go.

 

 

Ok, done. V1 posted here, incorporating the changes you suggest Pete.

https://canalworld.net/forums/index.php?/topic/93963-battery-problems-please-read-this-before-starting-a-new-thread-v1/

I've reported the thread to the mods, asking it to be pinned. 

Do we actually want a new battery problems board, does the team think? Or just carry on discussing them in Equipment and/or Boat Building and Maintenance? These two boards overlap rather a lot I often think, and it really isn't clear where to post battery problems.

[RLWP]

Maybe a Boat Electrics section? You could then lump in solar, galvanic isolators, weird blue boxes, LED lights

Richard

[MtB]

On 12/11/2017 at 16:26, RLWP said:

Maybe a Boat Electrics section? You could then lump in solar, galvanic isolators, weird blue boxes, LED lights

Richard

 

Well I was thinking more along the lines that 'boat building and maintenance' ought to be separated into two boards: 'Boat building and fitting out', and 'Maintenance and fault finding' , as maintenance is only loosely related to boat building.

Then the 'Equipment' section would be redundant, as all equipment questions now fit neatly into 'Boat building and fitting out'.

Maintenance and fault finding would be for battery problems, LEDs won't work, fridge is busted, etc

[cuthound]

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Well I was thinking more along the lines that 'boat building and maintenance' ought to be separated into two boards: 'Boat building and fitting out', and 'Maintenance and fault finding' , as maintenance is only loosely related to boat building.

Then the 'Equipment' section would be redundant, as all equipment questions now fit neatly into 'Boat building and fitting out'.

Maintenance and fault finding would be for battery problems, LEDs won't work, fridge is busted, etc

Like it, very logical. Have a green thingumeejig.

[dmr]

I would go in the opposite direction and have less rather than more boards. If there are too many subdivision some just won't get enough activity and responses and people will either stop posting in them or intentionally just post in "general boating" to get a response. I sometimes fail to see the distinction between "Boat Building and Maintenance" and "Equipment", lets merge them.

Also, this is a friendly and fun discussion forum, (and some of the topic drift can be really good), it is not a professional fault finding service so even though its tempting to have an "electrical" form to fill in before asking questions I think we should resist this. Its like when you try to contact customer support and have to spend an hour finding answers to irrelevant questions before anybody will speak to you.

I remember phoning for car insurance quotes and would start by saying "its left hand drive will you insure me", but was always told they could not answer that, the computer needs other information, so 20 mins of postcode, age, job, make of vehicle, convictions etc etc etc then right at the end "is it left hand drive" and which point they would say, sorry we don't do left hand drive.

..............Dave

[mchancox]

1 hour ago, smileypete said:

Looks great , the only thing I could think of adding was:

10) A brief description of how the batteries are seen to be underperforming or failing.

And a couple of very minor points - how about mention solar to the list in 4), and mention other possible charge sources in 6)

I'm sure the mods wouldn't mind pinning a copy in the Equipment forum, the topics  'Robust debate - Technical discussions' and 'Power generation' could be unpinned.

I'm sure the list can be tweaked in the light of experience but 'V1' looks good to go.

 

Specific gravity reading of electrolyte is also useful if this can be obtained. If all else fails, buy a battery analyser. 

I use one like this with a printer but there are slightly cheaper ones. Basic print out shows state of health and state of charge. 

[Dr Bob]

1 hour ago, cuthound said:

Like it, very logical. Have a green thingumeejig.

Yes, agreed.

[Sea Dog]

For AGM batteries,  press 3.

For Lithium Ion batteries, press 4.

Etc.

[Dr Bob]

4 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

For AGM batteries,  press 3.

For Lithium Ion batteries, press 4.

Etc.

For Smartguage, press 100   ........or was that 95?

[cuthound]

17 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

For AGM batteries,  press 3.

For Lithium Ion batteries, press 4.

Etc.

Reminds me of this .

 

 

[RLWP]

2 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Well I was thinking more along the lines that 'boat building and maintenance' ought to be separated into two boards: 'Boat building and fitting out', and 'Maintenance and fault finding' , as maintenance is only loosely related to boat building.

Then the 'Equipment' section would be redundant, as all equipment questions now fit neatly into 'Boat building and fitting out'.

Maintenance and fault finding would be for battery problems, LEDs won't work, fridge is busted, etc

If you go into the Old Smokers Vintage Engine Forum, that is subdivided by engine type. Perhaps the BB&M section could be subdivided 

Richard

[MtB]

On 12/11/2017 at 17:48, mchancox said:

Specific gravity reading of electrolyte is also useful if this can be obtained. If all else fails, buy a battery analyser. 

I use one like this with a printer but there are slightly cheaper ones. Basic print out shows state of health and state of charge. 

 

I'm dead curious now. What exactly does this thing tell you? How does it determine state of charge (not especially helpful, we can do that with a DVM)?

And what is "state of health" precisely please? What exactly is it measuring?

Having googled I can't find this model. The models I find that cost £50-ish all seem to be pretty vague about what they do. There is one by Fluke that costs about £3k, but I'm not buying one of those!

On 12/11/2017 at 17:04, dmr said:

I would go in the opposite direction and have less rather than more boards.

 

I wasn't proposing more boards.

We have two and I was proposing shuffling the names of the two so they made a bit more sense. 

[mchancox]

7 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I'm dead curious now. What exactly does this thing tell you? How does it determine state of charge (not especially helpful, we can do that with a DVM)?

And what is "state of health" precisely please? What exactly is it measuring?

Having googled I can't find this model. The models I find that cost £50-ish all seem to be pretty vague about what they do. There is one by Fluke that costs about £3k, but I'm not buying one of those!

It'll measure things like battery internal resistance, ability to accept a charge, etc to see that in the first place it is healthy. I guess we have all seen a battery declared as faulty but showing 12v+ on it but under lid it drops off to say 7v or less. So although a battery using a Volt meter may show a reasonable reading it may not be in good health. 

After telling it what type of battery and what the battery SAE, CCA, Ah is it'll then give you a percentage score at the end. Plus a print out so the customer can easily see what the gadget is reporting back. Sealey do a cheaper version. 

[cereal tiller]

4 minutes ago, mchancox said:

It'll measure things like battery internal resistance, ability to accept a charge, etc to see that in the first place it is healthy. I guess we have all seen a battery declared as faulty but showing 12v+ on it but under lid it drops off to say 7v or less. So although a battery using a Volt meter may show a reasonable reading it may not be in good health. 

After telling it what type of battery and what the battery SAE, CCA, Ah is it'll then give you a percentage score at the end. Plus a print out so the customer can easily see what the gadget is reporting back. Sealey do a cheaper version. 

Is it necessary to buy 2,(for comparison)?

[mchancox]

Just now, cereal tiller said:

Is it necessary to buy 2,(for comparison)?

That'll mean less money to spend on quality batteries. 

[MtB]

On 12/11/2017 at 20:37, mchancox said:

After telling it what type of battery and what the battery SAE, CCA, Ah is it'll then give you a percentage score at the end. Plus a print out so the customer can easily see what the gadget is reporting back. Sealey do a cheaper version

 

As I thought.  load of psuedo-technical mumbo-jumbo designed to sound impressive whilst telling one nothing.

On 12/11/2017 at 20:42, cereal tiller said:

Is it necessary to buy 2,(for comparison)?

 

Curiously I think I'm jinxed. I bought an inside/outside dual readout thermometer the other day. I liked it and bought another and guess what, they disagree by three whole degrees C!

[mchancox]

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

As I thought.  load of psuedo-technical mumbo-jumbo designed to sound impressive whilst telling one nothing.

It works and it's simple

[MtB]

On 12/11/2017 at 20:46, mchancox said:

It works and it's simple

 

NOTHING to do with batteries is simple!