AGM Batteries vs. Cheap 'Leisure' Batteries

[BruceinSanity]

10 hours ago, Bargebuilder said:

A very quick look found that a 120Ah AGM battery costs around £150, so 8 of them would cost £1200. This particular one has a 4yr warranty so the cost per year of warranty would be, guess what? £300, approximately the same as for cheap leisure wet batteries or top of the range wet deep cycle batteries as per my previous post.

Very approximately though, because there are so many variables.

So the balance is between the convenience of only changing the batteries every ten years (possibly) against the expense and the risk of knackering the expensive ones rather than the cheapos that represent much less investment.

[WotEver]

50 minutes ago, BruceinSanity said:

So the balance is between the convenience of only changing the batteries every ten years (possibly) against the expense and the risk of knackering the expensive ones rather than the cheapos that represent much less investment.

Yes. Quite simply one should learn how to look after the batteries over time and only then, when confident in your ability, can expensive batteries be considered. Depending on your usage and charging regimes you might well find that you get 5 years or so out of cheapies, in which case why bother with expensive ones?

[MtB]

On 29/08/2017 at 07:16, BruceinSanity said:

So the balance is between the convenience of only changing the batteries every ten years (possibly) against the expense and the risk of knackering the expensive ones rather than the cheapos that represent much less investment.

 

There seems to be more to it than that. Nick repeatedly reports being so pleased with the performance of his Trojans over two previous sets of cheapo leisures, but never quite seems to explain what the difference is. 

One would think given he knows how to look after his batteries, there would be no point in buying Trojans.

[mrsmelly]

2 hours ago, BruceinSanity said:

So the balance is between the convenience of only changing the batteries every ten years (possibly) against the expense and the risk of knackering the expensive ones rather than the cheapos that represent much less investment.

So this brings us back to ALWAYS buy cheap, cheerful and bin. Similar costs less risk easy to obtain instantly in eighteen billion locations most boats will not need rewiring to accommodate them etc etc

[Bargebuilder]

As I am now approaching the end of the life of my £2,800 worth of Rolls batteries, I am coming round to the idea that buying cheap might be the better option for me.

Yes, I will need to replace them more often, but then I can lift the cheap batteries myself without the fear of personal injury: I needed to have the Rolls batteries lifted on board with a fork lift.

I know that people say that my very expensive Rolls batteries can be safely deep cycled, but in practice I don't, because they represent too high an investment to abuse.

Also, as has been already pointed out, one could spend a fortune on a long life battery bank and accidentally damage it early in its life: A failed battery charger or solar controller or even a problem with an automatic de-ionised water filler whilst you are away on holiday.

Another consideration is that battery technology is forging ahead quickly now, due to the push for electric cars. Perhaps investing in a system that will last for ten years is too long.

A number of my rich yachtie friends are keen on AGM batteries, not because of their performance so much, but more because they don't spill acid when their yacht heels over. All of the liveaboards that I know use wet cell, lead acid batteries. 

Has anyone, anywhere done a real life comparison between battery types where each is subjected to the same regime of charging and discharging? I doubt it.

Cheap batteries will indeed last just months if badly abused, and expensive batteries may stand such abuse for longer, but if you look after your batteries, whatever their cost, perhaps the life expectancy is roughly proportional to the initial price.

[Bee]

'Cheap' batteries last a long time when used as designed and even if used  as 'leisure' batteries they last pretty well especially if used with solar panels to keep them reasonably charged. I've only had problems if they are charged for a couple of hours by the engine then flattened by the telly and the fridge and then walloping a load of charge from the engine into them again. They don't like that.

[mrsmelly]

4 hours ago, Bargebuilder said:

As I am now approaching the end of the life of my £2,800 worth of Rolls batteries, I am coming round to the idea that buying cheap might be the better option for me.

Yes, I will need to replace them more often, but then I can lift the cheap batteries myself without the fear of personal injury: I needed to have the Rolls batteries lifted on board with a fork lift.

I know that people say that my very expensive Rolls batteries can be safely deep cycled, but in practice I don't, because they represent too high an investment to abuse.

Also, as has been already pointed out, one could spend a fortune on a long life battery bank and accidentally damage it early in its life: A failed battery charger or solar controller or even a problem with an automatic de-ionised water filler whilst you are away on holiday.

Another consideration is that battery technology is forging ahead quickly now, due to the push for electric cars. Perhaps investing in a system that will last for ten years is too long.

A number of my rich yachtie friends are keen on AGM batteries, not because of their performance so much, but more because they don't spill acid when their yacht heels over. All of the liveaboards that I know use wet cell, lead acid batteries. 

Has anyone, anywhere done a real life comparison between battery types where each is subjected to the same regime of charging and discharging? I doubt it.

Cheap batteries will indeed last just months if badly abused, and expensive batteries may stand such abuse for longer, but if you look after your batteries, whatever their cost, perhaps the life expectancy is roughly proportional to the initial price.

In a nutshell that sums it up. My last boat when I bought it had PROPER traction batteries ( not cheapy pretend style Trojans ), six in number each weighed 54 kilos. They had been abused but did charge up and when I had some leccy work on the boat I had a rewire and binned them and put cheapos on. The pikey I called round to take them away was well chuffed I bet he got a few spons for them and my cheapo leisures lasted me 3 years on that boat but were cream crackered when I sold it.

[Murflynn]

6 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

There seems to be more to it than that. Nick repeatedly reports being so pleased with the performance of his Trojans over two previous sets of cheapo leisures, but never quite seems to explain what the difference is. 

One would think given he knows how to look after his batteries, there would be no point in buying Trojans.

if you spend a fortune on anything you will always spend the next 10 years patting yourself on the back and telling people what a wise choice you made.  it's human nature.

[mrsmelly]

6 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

if you spend a fortune on anything you will always spend the next 10 years patting yourself on the back and telling people what a wise choice you made.  it's human nature.

And their lies the truth of it. People buy something and whatever it is they refuse to accept its a mistake in many cases and kid themselves and others on that it was a good move often unintentionaly. Prime example of todays gimmicks are such as composting bogs ( unless used correctly ) I remember a few years ago looking at the Dometic ceramic bowled cassette bog it was expensive but I bought one and the cassettes leaked so I bought another and that leaked and the bog build was crap ( pardon the pun ) I persevered for about a month and then took it out at a total cost of near a grand if I recall and promptly skipped it looking as new. I suppose I could have argued the toss with the supplier or even sold it on as near new but hey ho I skipped it and replaced it with a Thetford. I did however put a thread on here telling all of the mistake I had made in purchasing it.

[Ron T]

Just replaced agms with sealed lead acid,don't know enough about correct maintainence to pamper agms,so considering the boat will be sitting here for 9months of the year plugged in to shore power we chose the cheapest replacement option.Even then! the sealed lead acids still cost e150 each.[France]

[BruceinSanity]

1 hour ago, Murflynn said:

if you spend a fortune on anything you will always spend the next 10 years patting yourself on the back and telling people what a wise choice you made.  it's human nature.

Today's fancy words: cognitive dissonance reduction, the psychologist's name for exactly that. Frequently seen in the world of business – "This consultant we've hired is sh!t hot, he's costing us two grand a day!"

[Bargebuilder]

1 hour ago, mrsmelly said:

1 hour ago, Murflynn said:

if you spend a fortune on anything you will always spend the next 10 years patting yourself on the back and telling people what a wise choice you made.  it's human nature.

And their lies the truth of it. People buy something and whatever it is they refuse to accept its a mistake in many cases and kid themselves and others on that it was a good move often unintentionaly. Prime example of todays gimmicks are such as composting bogs ( unless used correctly ) I remember a few years ago looking at the Dometic ceramic bowled cassette bog it was expensive but I bought one and the cassettes leaked so I bought another and that leaked and the bog build was crap ( pardon the pun ) I persevered for about a month and then took it out at a total cost of near a grand if I recall and promptly skipped it looking as new. I suppose I could have argued the toss with the supplier or even sold it on as near new but hey ho I skipped it and replaced it with a Thetford. I did however put a thread on here telling all of the mistake I had made in purchasing it.

Often yes, but I have just been happy to reveal that my 10yr guarantee Rolls traction batteries which cost £2,800 possibly don't represent any better value than cheapie batteries.

I have also, within the last week, be extolling the virtues of my composting toilet that cost me just over £100 all in to build. It works brilliantly and so very much better than the smelly, blockage and breakdown prone macerator toilet that it replaced.

I am very happy to share both the successes and failures.

[nicknorman]

7 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

There seems to be more to it than that. Nick repeatedly reports being so pleased with the performance of his Trojans over two previous sets of cheapo leisures, but never quite seems to explain what the difference is. 

One would think given he knows how to look after his batteries, there would be no point in buying Trojans.

The difference is this. With the first set of cheapo leisure, after 6 months of fairly heavy leisure use (on shore power in between) the capacity was down to about 1/2. I thought the batteries had probably suffered from being installed in the boat during build (which took a year) and not charged enough etc. I bought a new set of leisure from Midland Chandlers, around £70 each for 4. After 6 months of the same use, they were down to around 1/2 capacity. Equalising them bought the capacity back - for a while. But gradually the interval between needing to equalise decreased and after 2 years they were knackered - low capacity, not taking much charge current etc. I then got the Trojans, 4 1/2 years ago. They were just over £100 each for 4, 450AH vs 440AH for the leisures. After 4 1/2 years they still have full capacity. I equalise them a couple of times over winter, never over summer. I top up the water a couple of times a year (yes, they do like water, but the bayonet caps and 1/2 the number of cells makes it easy). This is why I like them!

I suppose the only downside is that they are less good at delivering high current than leisures. With the electric kettle on, the demand is 200A and even when they are at a high SoC, the terminal voltage is pretty low, which means the inverter needs more current, which means the terminal voltage gets lower... I tend to avoid using the electric kettle in the morning as it gets fairly close to inverter tripout voltage.

[Bargebuilder]

15 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

I then got the Trojans, 4 1/2 years ago. They were just over £100 each for 4, 450AH vs 440AH for the leisures.

Hi Nick,

You recommendation does sound encouraging, but would you mind being a bit more specific, as I am looking at the Tayna battery website and I am struggling to find the model that you mention.

Are you talking about 4x 12v batteries that together add up to 450Ah at C20, making each 112.5 Ah each,

or 4x 6v batteries at 225Ah each at C20?

Thanks.

[mrsmelly]

31 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

The difference is this. With the first set of cheapo leisure, after 6 months of fairly heavy leisure use (on shore power in between) the capacity was down to about 1/2. I thought the batteries had probably suffered from being installed in the boat during build (which took a year) and not charged enough etc. I bought a new set of leisure from Midland Chandlers, around £70 each for 4. After 6 months of the same use, they were down to around 1/2 capacity. Equalising them bought the capacity back - for a while. But gradually the interval between needing to equalise decreased and after 2 years they were knackered - low capacity, not taking much charge current etc. I then got the Trojans, 4 1/2 years ago. They were just over £100 each for 4, 450AH vs 440AH for the leisures. After 4 1/2 years they still have full capacity. I equalise them a couple of times over winter, never over summer. I top up the water a couple of times a year (yes, they do like water, but the bayonet caps and 1/2 the number of cells makes it easy). This is why I like them!

I suppose the only downside is that they are less good at delivering high current than leisures. With the electric kettle on, the demand is 200A and even when they are at a high SoC, the terminal voltage is pretty low, which means the inverter needs more current, which means the terminal voltage gets lower... I tend to avoid using the electric kettle in the morning as it gets fairly close to inverter tripout voltage.

Oy Nick do you type on the move? or are you moored nearby?

[rusty69]

59 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

Hi Nick,

You recommendation does sound encouraging, but would you mind being a bit more specific, as I am looking at the Tayna battery website and I am struggling to find the model that you mention.

Are you talking about 4x 12v batteries that together add up to 450Ah at C20, making each 112.5 Ah each,

or 4x 6v batteries at 225Ah each at C20?

Thanks.

https://www.tayna.co.uk/T-105-Trojan-Battery-Deep-Cycle-T105-P7253.html

[peterboat]

I am firmly in the full traction camp one bank over 12 years old and still working great, for the bathtub I will be fitting tubular gells but that is because access will be crap!!

[Sunflower16]

We have used "cheapo" leisure batteries on our motorhome for years with no problem at all- van is never on hookup except occasionally on site,  there are 2 100w solar panels and an MPPT charger and everything is still operating effectively after 3+ years since the solar install. The motorhome cmmunity generally seem to rate the cheapo leisures rather than spending a whole lot more on AGM.  I have no experience with boats, but will monitor our new-to-us GRP cruiser's leisure battery installation /solar panel power loss over time with interest.........

[rusty69]

27 minutes ago, peterboat said:

, for the bathtub I will be fitting tubular gells but that is because access will be crap!!

Designed by Mike Goldfield? 

Edited August 29, 2017 by rusty69

[Bargebuilder]

2 hours ago, nicknorman said:

I then got the Trojans, 4 1/2 years ago. They were just over £100 each for 4, 450AH vs 440AH for the leisures. After 4 1/2 years they still have full capacity. I equalise them a couple of times over winter, never over summer. I top up the water a couple of times a year (yes, they do like water, but the bayonet caps and 1/2 the number of cells makes it easy). This is why I like them!

Nick,

Glowing praise indeed, but you have more confidence in them than Trojan do, if their 12 month guarantee is a measure.

8 of them would cost about £1,000 and by way of comparison a bank with 10% more capacity from Rolls would cost £2,800, but would carry a 10yr guarantee.

I'm not suggesting that guarantee length is any measure of longevity, but with Rolls, for 3x the price you get 10x the guarantee period.

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, Bargebuilder said:

Nick,

Glowing praise indeed, but you have more confidence in them than Trojan do, if their 12 month guarantee is a measure.

8 of them would cost about £1,000 and by way of comparison a bank with 10% more capacity from Rolls would cost £2,800, but would carry a 10yr guarantee.

I'm not suggesting that guarantee length is any measure of longevity, but with Rolls, for 3x the price you get 10x the guarantee period.

I get 5 years on full tractions at £600 per 720 ah bank

[nicknorman]

4 hours ago, Bargebuilder said:

Hi Nick,

You recommendation does sound encouraging, but would you mind being a bit more specific, as I am looking at the Tayna battery website and I am struggling to find the model that you mention.

Are you talking about 4x 12v batteries that together add up to 450Ah at C20, making each 112.5 Ah each,

or 4x 6v batteries at 225Ah each at C20?

Thanks.

Trojan T105 4 x 6v batteries at 225AH each. Half as many cells to check/top up as 4 x 12v batteries, and fewer interconnect wires.

4 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

Oy Nick do you type on the move? or are you moored nearby?

Yes. Well 3mph on the Oxford is kind of slow! Anyway, good to meet you in person even if your recommendation for a fuel stop was pants! Moored at Somerton, picked up a friend here for dinner (who now lives in Scotland, used to live in - and visiting - Chesterton (Bicester))

Edited August 29, 2017 by nicknorman

[nicknorman]

3 hours ago, Sunflower16 said:

We have used "cheapo" leisure batteries on our motorhome for years with no problem at all- van is never on hookup except occasionally on site,  there are 2 100w solar panels and an MPPT charger and everything is still operating effectively after 3+ years since the solar install. The motorhome cmmunity generally seem to rate the cheapo leisures rather than spending a whole lot more on AGM.  I have no experience with boats, but will monitor our new-to-us GRP cruiser's leisure battery installation /solar panel power loss over time with interest.........

I can only imagine that folk with cheapo leisure batteries are overburdened with capacity and have minimal demands and so don't notice when their batteries' capacity is down to 50% or less.

[Richard10002]

6 hours ago, Murflynn said:

if you spend a fortune on anything you will always spend the next 10 years patting yourself on the back and telling people what a wise choice you made.  it's human nature.

Sometimes, with some things. Other times you will be very upset/angry, and take every opportunity to tell anyone who will listen.

Many expensive brands spend a fortune reassuring people that they have made the right decision.

[nicknorman]

2 hours ago, Bargebuilder said:

Nick,

Glowing praise indeed, but you have more confidence in them than Trojan do, if their 12 month guarantee is a measure.

8 of them would cost about £1,000 and by way of comparison a bank with 10% more capacity from Rolls would cost £2,800, but would carry a 10yr guarantee.

I'm not suggesting that guarantee length is any measure of longevity, but with Rolls, for 3x the price you get 10x the guarantee period.

Sorry but I don't think guarantee period has any relevance. The guarantee is against a manufacturing defect, not against eg sulphation or plate shedding. You can get leisure batteries with a 2 or 3 year "guarantee" but you try claiming on that guarantee on the grounds of "manufacturing defect" when the batteries are goosed after a year. The whole look, feel, and behaviour of the T105s is in a different league to leisure batteries.

T105s are designed as golf cart batteries and you can imagine that these have a fairly hard life, possibly being nearly fully discharged every day and battered and bumped around. A year like that is worth several years of boat use.

Just another snippet but when you buy leisure batteries they are full of gusto from the outset, but die young. When you buy Trojans, they are pants to start with but their capacity slowly improves and they reach peak capacity probably at just about the same time as the leisure ones would be dying. They are in it for the long haul!