Diesels to be banned

[Robbo]

2 hours ago, mross said:

To replace all the petrol and diesel used by today's cars, buses and truck will take about 16GW.  That's four or five nuclear power stations, not twenty.  And in 2040 there will still be plenty of internal combustions engines just not new ones.  This is quite do-able.

I read somewhere that to power ALL the UK's energy requirements from Nuclear it would take around 150-200 reactors (note reactors not plants).  150 if we use ground source heat pumps.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Robbo

[cuthound]

Wikipedia on aluminium air batteries.

Apparently one company is now claiming a range of 1200 miles.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium–air_battery

Note they are primary cells, one shot devices which cannot bevrechsred,  like a duracell battery. However they can be reused by replacing the aluminium anode, and recovering the aluminium dissolved in the electrolyte.

I researched them around 1990, to use as a one shot device to provide critical power for up to an hour, but the technology was too fragile and costly back then for it to be viable.

[mross]

UK total electricity demand is about 40GW.  Ten power stations worth.

http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk

[cuthound]

9 minutes ago, mross said:

UK total electricity demand is about 40GW.  Ten power stations worth.

http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk

When I was working for BT, 10 years ago, I used to monitor national grid maximum demand to help decide when to participate in TRIAD runs. The highest peak I recall was around 63GW in the winter of 2006/7.

 I suspect it will be higher now, if we have a cold winter.

[Robbo]

14 minutes ago, mross said:

UK total electricity demand is about 40GW.  Ten power stations worth.

http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk

I use this one... https://www.electricitymap.org

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, mross said:

To replace all the petrol and diesel used by today's cars, buses and truck will take about 16GW.  That's four or five nuclear power stations, not twenty.  And in 2040 there will still be plenty of internal combustions engines just not new ones.  This is quite do-able.

Where did you get 20 power stations from?

[mross]

post 251.  But I missed off a zero.  He actually said 150 to 200 reactors !!!!!

[Murflynn]

this discussion is ridiculous - it seems to be a question of deja-vu every time the alleged additional power generation requirements are mentioned.

THINK OFF-PEAK.  end of story.

 

[peterboat]

26 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

this discussion is ridiculous - it seems to be a question of deja-vu every time the alleged additional power generation requirements are mentioned.

THINK OFF-PEAK.  end of story.

 

Exactly but that doesnt fit with their argument does it?

Edited July 31, 2017 by peterboat

[WotEver]

34 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

this discussion is ridiculous - it seems to be a question of deja-vu every time the alleged additional power generation requirements are mentioned.

THINK OFF-PEAK.  end of story.

Tell me: how many OFF-PEAK hours do you think there are in a day? In my world there are about 8. Seeing as these cars take around 9 hours to fully charge, they'll all be charging at the same time... isn't that then the antithesis of OFF-PEAK?

[Robbo]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Where did you get 20 power stations from?

 

1 hour ago, mross said:

post 251.  But I missed off a zero.  He actually said 150 to 200 reactors !!!!!

You prob got the 20 from these type,of reports recently in the news; http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4215622/20-new-nuclear-power-stations-needed-electric-cars.html

my quotation number of 150-200 is a theretical number to replace all energy sources, including for airplanes (if possible).  I can’t find the source, but it was a few years ago now.

sorry, for the Daily Mail link.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Robbo

[Murflynn]

3 hours ago, WotEver said:

Tell me: how many OFF-PEAK hours do you think there are in a day? In my world there are about 8. Seeing as these cars take around 9 hours to fully charge, they'll all be charging at the same time... isn't that then the antithesis of OFF-PEAK?

If you draw a chart of demand against time of day it will have 2 significant peaks, around breakfast time and dinner time.  The combined generating capacity must be able to meet this peak demand with a degree of spare capacity, on the worst days of the year (probably in mid-winter).   At any other time there is plenty of spare capacity. Overnight the period will be about 10 hours when there is huge spare capacity (most of industry is shut down, just keeping emergency systems ticking over) representing maybe 80%(?) of the total capacity; during the working day there will be slack times when there is some spare capacity, but not so significant.   The Economy 7 Tariff covers the 7 hours of the very lowest demand. 

It is not beyond the wit of man and the industry to match vehicle battery design and their charging capabilities with the duration of off-peak times.  Perhaps you can demonstrate that the availability of spare capacity during off peak times is not sufficient to meet the projected charging requirements.  

[WotEver]

22 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

Perhaps you can demonstrate that the availability of spare capacity during off peak times is not sufficient to meet the projected charging requirements.

Unfortunately I do not work in that industry and therefore find myself led by those who do, such as The National Grid.. They have been telling the government that significant extra generating capacity is required.

"Shifting the charging of cars to times when demand is lower would reduce the extra peak demand to 3.5GW, a smaller amount but still a similar capacity to the new reactors being built at Hinkley Point in Somerset"

Clearly you know more than them.  If they're wrong then so be it.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jul/13/electric-car-boom-power-demand-national-grid-hinkley-point-c

The full report here:

http://fes.nationalgrid.com/fes-document/

[WotEver]

And they're only talking about 2030 at this stage, a whole decade before the 'big switch over'. 

[Murflynn]

9 hours ago, WotEver said:

Unfortunately I do not work in that industry and therefore find myself led by those who do, such as The National Grid.. They have been telling the government that significant extra generating capacity is required.

"Shifting the charging of cars to times when demand is lower would reduce the extra peak demand to 3.5GW, a smaller amount but still a similar capacity to the new reactors being built at Hinkley Point in Somerset"

Clearly you know more than them.  If they're wrong then so be it.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jul/13/electric-car-boom-power-demand-national-grid-hinkley-point-c

The full report here:

http://fes.nationalgrid.com/fes-document/

quote from your first source: If electric vehicles were not charged smartly to avoid peaks and troughs in power demand, such as when people return home between 5pm and 6pm, peak demand could be as much as 8GW higher in 2030, National Grid said.

quote from your second source : Without smart charging, this could result in an additional 8GW of demand at peak times.   ...............  errr .... why would they ignore smart charging which is the only sensible way to manage the issue?

as I said - think OFF PEAK.  

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, Murflynn said:

as I said - think OFF PEAK.  

Do you have a problem with reading, or is it simply the perception of what you read that you struggle with?

10 hours ago, WotEver said:

"Shifting the charging of cars to times when demand is lower would reduce the extra peak demand to 3.5GW, a smaller amount but still a similar capacity to the new reactors being built at Hinkley Point in Somerset"

 

I also repeat that they are only talking about 2030 - things will be a whole lot worse a decade later. 

[peterboat]

11 hours ago, Murflynn said:

If you draw a chart of demand against time of day it will have 2 significant peaks, around breakfast time and dinner time.  The combined generating capacity must be able to meet this peak demand with a degree of spare capacity, on the worst days of the year (probably in mid-winter).   At any other time there is plenty of spare capacity. Overnight the period will be about 10 hours when there is huge spare capacity (most of industry is shut down, just keeping emergency systems ticking over) representing maybe 80%(?) of the total capacity; during the working day there will be slack times when there is some spare capacity, but not so significant.   The Economy 7 Tariff covers the 7 hours of the very lowest demand. 

It is not beyond the wit of man and the industry to match vehicle battery design and their charging capabilities with the duration of off-peak times.  Perhaps you can demonstrate that the availability of spare capacity during off peak times is not sufficient to meet the projected charging requirements.  

Last night on BBC 2 was a self driving cars documentary on it was shown induction charging automatically turning on and off so yes off peak will do nicely sir Greenie for you

6 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Do you have a problem with reading, or is it simply the perception of what you read that you struggle with?

 

I also repeat that they are only talking about 2030 - things will be a whole lot worse a decade later. 

I suspect the change over will be well on the way by then more than likely spot the IC car!! Children will be pelting them with eggs for being child killers

[Jerra]

58 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I also repeat that they are only talking about 2030 - things will be a whole lot worse a decade later. 

That assumes there will be no major change in how and how far people travel.   As conventional fuels run out this is going to change and the advent of the elctric car and the ever increasing energy crisis will bring the changes about.

Edited August 1, 2017 by Jerra
Spelling/typing

[Machpoint005]

There's only one way to reduce emissions from private cars: use them less!

[cuthound]

17 hours ago, Robbo said:

 

You prob got the 20 from these type,of reports recently in the news; http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4215622/20-new-nuclear-power-stations-needed-electric-cars.html

my quotation number of 150-200 is a theretical number to replace all energy sources, including for airplanes (if possible).  I can’t find the source, but it was a few years ago now.

sorry, for the Daily Mail link.

I think electric planes are a very long way off. Probably 50 years or more.

At present, and using lithium ion batteries (don't forget lithium is the third lightest element) the batteries only have about 2% of the energy density (watts per kg) of aviation fuel, so an improvement in energy density of well over 50 times is required. Lithium ion batteries have improved by an average of 3% energy density per year in recent years.

Also, unlike aviation fuel, batteries dont get lighter as you use them up. At take off up to 40% of the weight of a commercial airliner is fuel, so the plane require less energy to power it for every hour it flies, and an electric plane will have to carry additional energy density to compensate for this.

If (when?) they become viable, their charging requirements will have a much bigger impact on the national grid than that of electric cars.

[KevMc]

53 minutes ago, cuthound said:

I think electric planes are a very long way off. Probably 50 years or more.

At present, and using lithium ion batteries (don't forget lithium is the third lightest element) the batteries only have about 2% of the energy density (watts per kg) of aviation fuel, so an improvement in energy density of well over 50 times is required. Lithium ion batteries have improved by an average of 3% energy density per year in recent years.

Also, unlike aviation fuel, batteries dont get lighter as you use them up. At take off up to 40% of the weight of a commercial airliner is fuel, so the plane require less energy to power it for every hour it flies, and an electric plane will have to carry additional energy density to compensate for this.

If (when?) they become viable, their charging requirements will have a much bigger impact on the national grid than that of electric cars.

Maybe we should consider making short hop air travel very expensive - it is often cheaper to fly from say, Luton to Dublin than it is to get a taxi to the airport. 

I'll get back on my hobby horse for a moment - why oh why are we spending so much and polluting so much just to move bodies around quickly when we have no real need to do so?  We don't need to be in the same room to make a business presentation. We don't need to travel to an office to sit in front of a screen. If we invested the money we spend on transport infrastructure such as HS2, another runway at Heathrow or even another airport for London in faster broadband and changed the way we think about work we'd truly be a 21st century nation instead of a country that continues to live in the 19th century (even with the improvements in transport technology).

[cuthound]

5 minutes ago, KevMc said:

Maybe we should consider making short hop air travel very expensive - it is often cheaper to fly from say, Luton to Dublin than it is to get a taxi to the airport. 

I'll get back on my hobby horse for a moment - why oh why are we spending so much and polluting so much just to move bodies around quickly when we have no real need to do so?  We don't need to be in the same room to make a business presentation. We don't need to travel to an office to sit in front of a screen. If we invested the money we spend on transport infrastructure such as HS2, another runway at Heathrow or even another airport for London in faster broadband and changed the way we think about work we'd truly be a 21st century nation instead of a country that continues to live in the 19th century (even with the improvements in transport technology).

You are pushing against an open door with me.

BT were early adopters of telephone and video conferencing.

Indeed before the ban on hand held phones when driving, BT expected to take part in tele-conference meetings up to 2 hours long whilst driving from one end of the country to the other.

Never had an accident or even a near miss whilst doing it, but then I have noticed some people prioritise driving, and stop talking during the bits needing concentration, and some prioritise the conversation to the detriment of their driving.

[Machpoint005]

(1) Diesels aren't going to be banned

(2) Petrol engines aren't going to be banned

(3) All cars sold after 2040 will be ultra-low emissions, which includes plug-in petrol hybrids, plug-in diesel hybrids, hydrogen fuel cell cars and pure electric battery cars.

[KevMc]

19 minutes ago, cuthound said:

You are pushing against an open door with me.

BT were early adopters of telephone and video conferencing.

Indeed before the ban on hand held phones when driving, BT expected to take part in tele-conference meetings up to 2 hours long whilst driving from one end of the country to the other.

Never had an accident or even a near miss whilst doing it, but then I have noticed some people prioritise driving, and stop talking during the bits needing concentration, and some prioritise the conversation to the detriment of their driving.

 I was involved in a project with BT to enhance our telecommuting ability back in the 1990s but new management put a stop to it... they couldn't understand how they could manage people without bums on seats.

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, KevMc said:

 I was involved in a project with BT to enhance our telecommuting ability back in the 1990s but new management put a stop to it... they couldn't understand how they could manage people without bums on seats.

Yet by 2000 they were encouraging as many people as possible to work from home or if that was not possible, to work from operational buildings to reduce office costs.

I certainly worked from home on occasions from the early 90's onwards and eventually ended up based from home, although I had a national role, so could and did work all over the UK, including Northern Ireland.  

However I did work for one boss who was against home working, except for special occasions. One day, during annual appraisal time, both he and I were working from home on appraisals and we were both on a conference call in the afternoon. He suggested I join him for the conference call (he lived on a boat on Tags Island at Hampton on the Thames).

I got there early and found out why he didn't like people working from home. He took me on a trip around the island in his little rowing boat, showed me how he was learning to play a sitar! He was so easily distracted, and assumed everyone else was the same.