Displaying Licence 'discs'

[john6767]

3 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

Yes, but they said they would not be sending out confirmation letters either, so they are now back to the cost of printing, processing, and posting them, so I believe my comment you have quoted is still 100% valid.

I don't believable we have had anything in the post from CRT for at least 2 years.  When you pay for the licence online, the link to the pdf is there and (assuming you have a printer) you can print off as many copies as you want.  You can also log on to your account at any time and print off more.  We only have and ink jet printer at home, and they do not last very long, the ones that have been in over the wither are almost completely faded now.

[rusty69]

2 minutes ago, john6767 said:

 We only have and ink jet printer at home, and they do not last very long, the ones that have been in over the wither are almost completely faded now.

We use to use ink jets too, but found the cartridges didn't last very long,so swapped over to a cheap laser printer.

[john6767]

38 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

We use to use ink jets too, but found the cartridges didn't last very long,so swapped over to a cheap laser printer.

It was the printed licence that I mean did not last very long, the cartridges are not a big isuse, don't print very much at all.

[nicknorman]

21 hours ago, Victor Vectis said:

 

Am I wrong in thinking this?

 

Yes. You miss the point, which is about social pressure. If all boats have visible licences, there is pressure (or if you like, the paradigm) that everyone should get a licence. If half the boats don't display a licence, some people will think they don't need to bother. You may feel that you don't care if other folk have licences but ultimately that is a foolish viewpoint since if you become the only person to have a licence, you won't be able to use it because the canals will be derelict.

[Victor Vectis]

Well well, I never saw you as a curtain twitcher Nick.

My boat is licenced and I display a bit of paper to demonstrate the fact. But this is a  contract between CaRT and me, it is bugger all to do with anyone else.

The point in my first post was the implication that CaRT ask you to display your licence to keep other busybodies and shiny boaters, oops people, happy and for no other reason, as CaRT can check if a boat is licenced or not from their database.

[alan_fincher]

1 hour ago, john6767 said:

I don't believable we have had anything in the post from CRT for at least 2 years.  When you pay for the licence online, the link to the pdf is there and (assuming you have a printer) you can print off as many copies as you want.  You can also log on to your account at any time and print off more.  We only have and ink jet printer at home, and they do not last very long, the ones that have been in over the wither are almost completely faded now.

Yes, I'm fully online, and I download and print the "discs".

But, despite me not knowingly having changed any preferences, CRT are now mailing them to me attached to a receipt of payment.

I am not notified of renewals by post, only email, but it seems that they now insist on posting to me as a final step in the process.

I don't mind, but it defeats their stated objective, and why suggest I print it, if they are now going to anyway.
 

[nicknorman]

3 minutes ago, Victor Vectis said:

Well well, I never saw you as a curtain twitcher Nick.

My boat is licenced and I display a bit of paper to demonstrate the fact. But this is a  contract between CaRT and me, it is bugger all to do with anyone else.

The point in my first post was the implication that CaRT ask you to display your licence to keep other busybodies and shiny boaters, oops people, happy and for no other reason, as CaRT can check if a boat is licenced or not from their database.

It doesn't say " to keep people happy", you just invented that. It says so that they know you are licensed, for the underlying reasons I mentioned.

[Victor Vectis]

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

It doesn't say " to keep people happy", you just invented that. It says so that they know you are licensed, for the underlying reasons I mentioned.

OK then. How else would you interpert this:

‘It is very important – and a legal requirement – that you display your Licence. Although we don’t need this for licence checking purposes (the index number tells us if the boat is correctly licensed), it demonstrates to other boaters that you are complying with our requirements and not evading your responsibility to contribute to the cost of maintaining the Waterways.'

Keeping within the context of boat licensing, and bearing in mind what I've highlighted, of course.

[matty40s]

2 hours ago, nicknorman said:

It doesn't say " to keep people happy", you just invented that. It says so that they know you are licensed, for the underlying reasons I mentioned.

But Dave Mayall says it keeps him happy.

 

2 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

Yes, I'm fully online, and I download and print the "discs".

But, despite me not knowingly having changed any preferences, CRT are now mailing them to me attached to a receipt of payment.

I am not notified of renewals by post, only email, but it seems that they now insist on posting to me as a final step in the process.

I don't mind, but it defeats their stated objective, and why suggest I print it, if they are now going to anyway.
 

This is to make sure that people can't cite "havnt got the terms and conditions so didnt know the rules because I do it online"  as a get out excuse.

Edited March 14, 2017 by matty40s

[nicknorman]

14 minutes ago, Victor Vectis said:

OK then. How else would you interpert this:

‘It is very important – and a legal requirement – that you display your Licence. Although we don’t need this for licence checking purposes (the index number tells us if the boat is correctly licensed), it demonstrates to other boaters that you are complying with our requirements and not evading your responsibility to contribute to the cost of maintaining the Waterways.'

Keeping within the context of boat licensing, and bearing in mind what I've highlighted, of course.

I interpret it exactly as I have previously indicated. Nowhere does it mention "happy" etc. It demonstrates to other boaters that you (and hopefully everyone else) are/is complying with the rules, thus making compliance the social norm and thus putting subtle psychological pressure on anyone contemplating not licensing their boat - or rather, hopefully preventing anyone from contemplating not licensing their boat.

It seems a simple concept to me, nothing to do with curtain twitching.

[dor]

17 hours ago, JamesWoolcock said:

Index number?

Sadly many rely on the licence to give their index number.

Am I wrong? but I think a condition of getting a licence is that the boat clearly displays:

Boat name

Index number

Licence

...and all on both sides of the vessel.

James (too late to look up the regs!)

I agree about the license number, but I don't think C&RT require the boat name to be displayed (if they do, they could make a small fortune fining the boats round here...).  However the EA do require a name to be displayed, and it must be unique.  Hence all the 'Dragonfly 46' etc.

 

Does displaying a license, with the boat number and name on it, count as displaying the boat name?  I have an idea that the boat number is supposed to be readable from a certain distance, roughly equivalent to the width of an average canal.

[rusty69]

I don't think EA require the licence to be displayed. 

[alan_fincher]

20 minutes ago, dor said:

I agree about the license number, but I don't think C&RT require the boat name to be displayed (if they do, they could make a small fortune fining the boats round here...).  However the EA do require a name to be displayed, and it must be unique.  Hence all the 'Dragonfly 46' etc.

Does displaying a license, with the boat number and name on it, count as displaying the boat name?  I have an idea that the boat number is supposed to be readable from a certain distance, roughly equivalent to the width of an average canal.

CRT have repeatedly indicated they are no longer interested in a boat name, (which is, of course, not a uniqed identifier), but, being pedantic, not displaying it is still a breach of the relevant bye-laws.

Being even more pedantic, just about everybody keeping a boat on CRT waters is in any case probably in breach of the bye-laws, unless their boat name and index number are kept illuminated at night.....
 

Quote

5. (1) Every vessel on any canal shall have exhibited on the outside thereof so as to be clearly legible at all times at a distance of twenty yards
(i) her name and such index mark and number (if any) as the Board shall have assigned to the vessel

 

[rusty69]

4 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

CRT have repeatedly indicated they are no longer interested in a boat name, (which is, of course, not a uniqed identifier), but, being pedantic, not displaying it is still a breach of the relevant bye-laws.

Being even more pedantic, just about everybody keeping a boat on CRT waters is in any case probably in breach of the bye-laws, unless their boat name and index number are kept illuminated at night.....
 

 

It is clearly legible if you have a torch! 

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, alan_fincher said:

CRT have repeatedly indicated they are no longer interested in a boat name, (which is, of course, not a uniqed identifier), but, being pedantic, not displaying it is still a breach of the relevant bye-laws.

Being even more pedantic, just about everybody keeping a boat on CRT waters is in any case probably in breach of the bye-laws, unless their boat name and index number are kept illuminated at night.....
 

 

Street lights

[Muddy Ditch Rich]

On 3/13/2017 at 17:44, Victor Vectis said:

This from 'Your Questions Answered', Boaters' Update 10 Mar 2017:

Do I still need to display my licence discs?

Yes. This extract from licence Terms & Conditions explains why: ‘It is very important – and a legal requirement – that you display your Licence. Although we don’t need this for licence checking purposes (the index number tells us if the boat is correctly licensed), it demonstrates to other boaters that you are complying with our requirements and not evading your responsibility to contribute to the cost of maintaining the Waterways.'

Our boat is licenced so that we can use the waterways legally and in line with CaRT's terms & conditions etc. CaRT know this fact from their licence database. It is a contract between me and CaRT and nothing whatsoever to do with hi viz Hitlers (with or without clipboards), curtain twitchers and others of such ilk.

Am I wrong in thinking this?

 

The licence is not a contract, it is statutory, you don't have any contract with CaRT.  When you agreed to the " licence terms and conditions" you agreed to an unlawful fake contract which is unenforceable in any court whether agreed to or not. A contract can never override statute.

[Naughty Cal]

8 hours ago, Muddy Ditch Rich said:

The licence is not a contract, it is statutory, you don't have any contract with CaRT.  When you agreed to the " licence terms and conditions" you agreed to an unlawful fake contract which is unenforceable in any court whether agreed to or not. A contract can never override statute.

[widebeamboy]

on the17 hours ago, nicknorman said:

You miss the point, which is about social pressure. If all boats have visible licences, there is pressure (or if you like, the paradigm) that everyone should get a licence. If half the boats don't display a licence, some people will think they don't need to bother. You may feel that you don't care if other folk have licences but ultimately that is a foolish viewpoint since if you become the only person to have a licence, you won't be able to use it because the canals will be derelict.

Surely that is why CRT have enforcement loggers and checkers etc?  Someone who wanted to play the system with their peers could easily get a licence, print it off then cancel it and still display it so all the "busybodies would be happy" and the situation wouldn't have changed.  

On the rare occasion I've had to buy a licence to take the boat out of the marina for the day I've done it by phone as the online system just doesn't function as it should.  There is nothing emailed that I can recall that you could print out.  I don't keep index plates in our windows and our boat is not named in a visible manner.   I have forgotten to put the index plates in the windows on all occasions I have been out including a trip around the Olympic park which had a heavy CRT presence as well as lots of brass polishers (I keep the index plates with the tiller pin now so I won't forget). 

[nicknorman]

23 minutes ago, widebeamboy said:

Surely that is why CRT have enforcement loggers and checkers etc?  Someone who wanted to play the system with their peers could easily get a licence, print it off then cancel it and still display it so all the "busybodies would be happy" and the situation wouldn't have changed.  

On the rare occasion I've had to buy a licence to take the boat out of the marina for the day I've done it by phone as the online system just doesn't function as it should.  There is nothing emailed that I can recall that you could print out.  I don't keep index plates in our windows and our boat is not named in a visible manner.   I have forgotten to put the index plates in the windows on all occasions I have been out including a trip around the Olympic park which had a heavy CRT presence as well as lots of brass polishers (I keep the index plates with the tiller pin now so I won't forget). 

Sure but it's all about social norms etc. Of course someone could create a counterfeit licence, but it is the general effect on the majority that is relevant, not the creation of a flawless system. Your case is abnormal since your boat is not normally licenced - as a proportion of all boats you must be a 1%er or less.

You and Stuart seem obsessed with the "busybody" factor and can't see beyond it, but that is just a creation of your own imagination, it is not the thinking behind CRT's request.

Edited March 15, 2017 by nicknorman

[alan_fincher]

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

You and Stuart seem obsessed with the "busybody" factor and can't see beyond it, but that is just a creation of your own imagination, it is not the thinking behind CRT's request.

If not then why say what is quoted above....

 

Quote

it demonstrates to other boaters that you are complying with our requirements and not evading your responsibility to contribute to the cost of maintaining the Waterways.'

 

Why would people be checking otherwise?

I haven't read the whole thread, I admit, so maybe it has been mentioned, but why has the DVLC not asked that we keep displaying road fund discs, despite them no longer needing them, in order to "demonstrate to orther car owners that you are complying with our requirements and not evading your responsibility to contribute to the cost of maintaining the roads".

[GUMPY]

53 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

I haven't read the whole thread, I admit, so maybe it has been mentioned, but why has the DVLC not asked that we keep displaying road fund discs, despite them no longer needing them, in order to "demonstrate to orther car owners that you are complying with our requirements and not evading your responsibility to contribute to the cost of maintaining the roads".

Because the DVLA doest care what other drivers think and it has access to thousands of ANPR cameras that can check if you are taxed or not. The average motorist is checked at least once a day.

Do you want cameras on every bridge on the canal?

Edited March 15, 2017 by Loddon

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, alan_fincher said:

If not then why say what is quoted above....

 

 

Why would people be checking otherwise?

I haven't read the whole thread, I admit, so maybe it has been mentioned, but why has the DVLC not asked that we keep displaying road fund discs, despite them no longer needing them, in order to "demonstrate to orther car owners that you are complying with our requirements and not evading your responsibility to contribute to the cost of maintaining the roads".

Ive explained it twice now, sorry but I think you should read back rather than expecting it to be explained for a third time.

[Victor Vectis]

3 hours ago, nicknorman said:

You and Stuart seem obsessed with the "busybody" factor and can't see beyond it, but that is just a creation of your own imagination, it is not the thinking behind CRT's request.

No, it isn't!

Time and again I've read in boating blogs about 'all these unlicenced boats not displaying a licence'.

Our boat is licenced. It is my contract/statute thingy/deal (call it what you will) with CaRT that allows us to enjoy using our boat on the cut without hassle. I've paid CaRT with my money, therefore I don't see it as being anyone else's business.

As an aside, the only place we display our boat's number is on the licence 'disc' and the mooring permit. We were not given a set of index plates when we bought 'RW', I'd guess one of the previous owners kept them. This has not, however, proved a problem. AFAIK our boat's name is unique and when asked for a number by, for example, the lockies on the Trent I've just shouted it out to them and they've been happy.

[nicknorman]

11 minutes ago, Victor Vectis said:

No, it isn't!

Time and again I've read in boating blogs about 'all these unlicenced boats not displaying a licence'.

Our boat is licenced. It is my contract/statute thingy/deal (call it what you will) with CaRT that allows us to enjoy using our boat on the cut without hassle. I've paid CaRT with my money, therefore I don't see it as being anyone else's business.

As an aside, the only place we display our boat's number is on the licence 'disc' and the mooring permit. We were not given a set of index plates when we bought 'RW', I'd guess one of the previous owners kept them. This has not, however, proved a problem. AFAIK our boat's name is unique and when asked for a number by, for example, the lockies on the Trent I've just shouted it out to them and they've been happy.

You are confusing a concept that does get raised in boating blogs, with CRT's agenda. Surely you don't expect CRT to regulate all boating blogs? So in other words, what possible relevance does something written in a boating blog have to CRT's policies?

[Naughty Cal]

2 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

If not then why say what is quoted above....

 

 

Why would people be checking otherwise?

I haven't read the whole thread, I admit, so maybe it has been mentioned, but why has the DVLC not asked that we keep displaying road fund discs, despite them no longer needing them, in order to "demonstrate to orther car owners that you are complying with our requirements and not evading your responsibility to contribute to the cost of maintaining the roads".

Since doing away with the need to display a tax disc in cars the figure for car tax evasion has doubled.