Trojan/Powerline T105 Battery problems

[Tom and Bex]

We seem to be having some problems with our Powerline t105 batteries. They were new in October and we were told by Tayna that the Powerline batteries were just re-badged Trojans and other than price they were the same basic battery.

 

Our setup is 4 T105s wired in pairs for 12v 450ah total. We live off grid and charge most days using generator and charger to at least 80-90%, and charge to 100% (tail current 4.5-6.5A) at least once a week (usually more). Monitoring consists of smart gauge, volt meter and shunt based ammeter. Battery charger is caravan & leisure 40a that charges at 14.6-14.9v depending on temperature with ability to equalise at 15.8-16v. We also have 1kw solar but it's not doing much at the moment!

 

When first installed the batteries rarely dropped below 80% but now we struggle to keep them above 50% (lowest has been 40% this morning). All the classic signs of sulfation.

 

We tried to run an equalisation charge a couple of times but not sure if we are doing it right. We charge at 14.8v to a tail current of 4.5A (several hours) then switch to equalisation at 15.9v. Initially the current was 35a quickly dropping to 25a, then over the next hour dropped to 21a, before climbing again over the next hour to 36a when we switched it off.

 

This is what confused me surely the current should continue to drop not climb again? Will it damage the batteries continuing to charge at this voltage/current? Interestingly when switching off equalising, after a couple of minutes the battery charger stabilised at 14.8v 10.5a how can it be charging at a higher rate after 2 hours equalising than before? Does this mean the batteries are knackered already or do I just need to charge/equalise for longer? What's the best charge/equalise procedure?

 

We have a very basic, cheap hydrometer but find it very hard to read as the float seems to stick to the side (any recommendations for a better one welcome). My best guess was that one cell was reading about 1.225 and all the others were about 1.250 but wouldn't place too much emphasis on those readings. All cells have been topped up to correct level (just below filler neck) and were bubbling equally at end of charge.

 

Thanks for any help you can give.

 

Tom

[BargeeSpud]

I can't offer anything on equalising charges, but I notice you haven't said what the voltage reading is at the time you start charging. Personally, I'd forget using the SOC as a basis for deciding when to charge (its only a guide, no matter how accurate your SOC reading is) & go by the voltage reading instead. I don't let my batteries drop below 12.25 before initiating a charging cycle. Even my 6 T105's with their total of 675Ah need charging every 3 days or so when my solar isn't putting in much during these shorter days. That's with average to heavy use BTW, in summer I rely totally on my solar charger.

 

I hope my observations & experience with my Trojans is useful to you, other electrickery wizards on here will be able to help you far better than I can.

 

Good luck.

[mross]

This kind https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mechanics-Style-Car-Battery-Hydrometer/dp/B002R0NKP8/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1484741841&sr=8-4&keywords=battery+hydrometers

 

The best brand is E-Z Red but I can't find this at a sensible price today. I got one on eBay for £9.99. It compensates for temperature automatically and is easy to read.

 

Look for E-Z Red EZRS101 Battery Hydrometer

[WotEver]

Very sensibly priced refractometer here if you can wait for delivery https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B01MS3NAR0/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1484742357&sr=8-1π=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=battery+acid+refractometer&dpPl=1&dpID=41JndWMjyCL&ref=plSrch

[MtB]

This kind https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mechanics-Style-Car-Battery-Hydrometer/dp/B002R0NKP8/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1484741841&sr=8-4&keywords=battery+hydrometers

 

The best brand is E-Z Red but I can't find this at a sensible price today. I got one on eBay for £9.99. It compensates for temperature automatically and is easy to read.

 

Look for E-Z Red EZRS101 Battery Hydrometer

 

 

 

 

Well that looks a damned sight quicker to use than my refractometer!

 

One cell takes a couple of minutes with a refractometer which doesn't sound too bad but checking 12 cells takes best part of half an hour, which is a right drag.

[nicknorman]

Yes but I think a refractometer is easier to read accurately.

 

Anyway, we have 450AH of T105s. I find that once reasonably fully charged (eg your ~1%), when increasing the voltage to equalise the current doesn't go up that much. Maybe from your 4.5A to perhaps 12-15A max. Certainly nothing like the currents you mention. So that seems abnormal.

 

One thing you don't mention is the battery temperature. With the very high current you saw during equalise, perhaps one or more batteries was getting hot, which would explain the higher charging current afterwards.

 

I would repeat the procedure and carefully monitor the batteries' temperature (all 4 of them). There should be no noticeable temperature increase during equalise. If there is, I suspect it will be one battery causing the problem eg a partially shorted cell or some such.

[peterboat]

I agree with nick that a cell is more than likely shorting in a battery. I have 4 of the same in a boat I bought late last year, all its batteries were u/s so rather than fit leisure batteries I fitted rebadged trojans all seem to be ok fingers crossed

[dmr]

As a slight diversion, the T105 ius likely to be Trojans best selling battery so its hard to see why they supply a cheaper version of the same quality to Tayna as this can only reduce sales of the genuine Trojan, but then again capitalism and marketing does some strange things sometimes. My guess is that the Powerline is not as good as the Trojan, in fact Tayna did sort of say this to me on the phone a couple of years ago. Would it be easy for the OP to weight one for us???

 

I suggest more equalisation, and I thought it was 15.5 volts rather than 16???? A clamp meter would be good to check the current balance between the two halves of the battery bank, this should confirm the dodgy cell, and also a new hydrometer. Spinning the hydrometer between the fingers might release the sticky float, they all stick a bit but some hydrometers are quite small in diameter and float sticking and the meniscus effects are really bad in these. Also some hydrometers are very inaccurate, the scale is on a bit of paper and it is possible for this to move if the hydrometer is roughly handled or shipped.

 

.............Dave

[WotEver]

In UK winter temps, 16V is fine for equalising T105s

[nicknorman]

 

 

I suggest more equalisation, and I thought it was 15.5 volts rather than 16????

 

.............Dave

 

The Trojan user guide says 16.2v at 25C http://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/TrojanBattery_UsersGuide.pdf

 

I normally go for 15.5 in summer and 16 in winter just so as to avoid over-voltaging the boat's equipment.

[ditchcrawler]

I always found a reflectometer both faster and easier to use than a hydrometer, I also suspect my readings with it were more accurate.

[dmr]

 

The Trojan user guide says 16.2v at 25C http://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/TrojanBattery_UsersGuide.pdf

 

I normally go for 15.5 in summer and 16 in winter just so as to avoid over-voltaging the boat's equipment.

 

There's a lot of Trojan documents on the www with a fair bit of conflicting advice. I have one that says equalise at 15.5v (at 25degC), but that comes out at over 16 anyway at this time of the year. Don't have a www link but I could send you a pdf.

Have not seen your linked document before, its interesting as it says equalise every 30 days or when sg below 1.235 whilst I thought the accepted Trojan advice was not to routinely equalise, but only when sg below 1.25. If we also include the advice from US and Crown etc I reckon what its saying is that there are several different ideas and so its not critical or well defined so we should not be too pedantic about exact voltages. Interestingly you doc also describes a boost charge at constant current with no voltage limit. Your doc somehow fee ls quite old?

 

............Dave

[stegra]

I bought a 'Powerline' cranking battery for my work van about a year ago. I'll get a warning from the mods if I give my honest opinion of it. It was absolute tosh from the day I got it and I'll never buy from Tayna again. I struggled on with it until recently but lately I was having to run around in the morning getting my car to jump start it. Until then I was charging it every couple of days.

[Tom and Bex]

Thanks for replies so far. I've ordered a hydrometer as mentioned above and take some more accurate readings with it next week.

 

I'm still curious what would cause the current to increase when equalising? Can't see how a shorted cell could cause it?

 

Temperature of all 4 batteries was 21-25C after equalising last time (ambient temp about 7C). Does it look like I have a faulty battery and if so is there any way of testing? Hopefully it should be covered under guarantee add they're only a few months old.

 

Tom

[nicknorman]

Thanks for replies so far. I've ordered a hydrometer as mentioned above and take some more accurate readings with it next week.

I'm still curious what would cause the current to increase when equalising? Can't see how a shorted cell could cause it?

Temperature of all 4 batteries was 21-25C after equalising last time (ambient temp about 7C). Does it look like I have a faulty battery and if so is there any way of testing? Hopefully it should be covered under guarantee add they're only a few months old.

Tom

What can cause the current to increase while equalising? Thermal runaway. You say "temp...21-25.. last time" - do you mean the time before the time you related earlier, or when the equalise current was 30-odd amps?

 

You really need to isolate each battery, leave for a bit, then check for open circuit voltage. Since you have 2 parallel banks you could isolate one pair, check for any slight voltage difference between them, then repeat for the other pair - so you don't have to go without any battery power.

[WotEver]

I'm still curious what would cause the current to increase when equalising? Can't see how a shorted cell could cause it?

A soft short in a cell is caused by shed plate material sitting at the bottom of the case, 'shorting out' two plates. One of the undesired side effects of equalisation is increased shedding. Therefore it's possible that an equalisation charge could just trigger a soft short in one cell.

 

As you state that all of the batteries were the same cool temperature it doesn't appear that you do have a shorted cell.

 

A quick check while you wait for your hydrometer would be to disconnect each battery in turn and take a voltage reading. They should each read somewhere around 6.4V. If one of them reads significantly lower than the rest then you have found a faulty battery.

 

Cross-posted with Nick. But we're saying much the same thing.

[Tom and Bex]

Equalisation current has done the same thing each time - started high, dropped a bit, then increased again. Always in the 25-35a range. Only measured the temp once which was just at the end of the most recent equalisation.

 

Generator charging switched off tonight at 6pm, 14.8v, 4.4a. Smartgauge now reads 70% voltage 12.4v. That's with just some led lights, 12v fridge and couple hours 12v tv. Will try disconnecting one pair for a day and see what happens.

 

Tom

[nicknorman]

Equalisation current has done the same thing each time - started high, dropped a bit, then increased again. Always in the 25-35a range. Only measured the temp once which was just at the end of the most recent equalisation.

Generator charging switched off tonight at 6pm, 14.8v, 4.4a. Smartgauge now reads 70% voltage 12.4v. That's with just some led lights, 12v fridge and couple hours 12v tv. Will try disconnecting one pair for a day and see what happens.

Tom

Well something is wrong. You shouldn't be seeing 35A at 15.9v on batteries that are more or less fully charged. Are the batteries using a lot of water / any significant imbalance in water consumption between the batteries?

 

As mentioned earlier, it would be good if you could put a clamp meter on the interconnect leads to see if one pair is taking a lot more current than the other pair.

 

Alternatively, when you next equalise, disconnect one pair and see if the current halves, or something substantially different.

Edited January 18, 2017 by nicknorman

[MtB]

Try turning your battery isolator OFF whilst equalising, just to rule out the possibility of something in your domestic system is consuming all that current.

[Tom and Bex]

I agree that something seems wrong! Unfortunately don't have a clamp meter and can't afford it this month but it's on my wish list. Good idea about disconnecting one pair when equalising, will be interesting to see what happens.

 

Current readings taken from shunt based ammeter that only reads current in or out of batteries. Worried it might be even higher than 35a if the charger could supply it, I suspect about 5a could have been used by fridge, laptop etc.

 

Tom

[Richard10002]

Can we consider the possibility/likelihood that there is nothing wrong?

 

It strikes me that the idea of equalising is to remove sulphation from the plates, thus increasing the battery capacity, and one would expect the amps drawn to increase at the moment the capacity increase.

 

My understanding of what ideally happens whilst equalising a sulphated battery is as follows, (based upon Sterlings description in my Pro Combi Charger Inverter manual:

 

Page 3 "What to expect on this cycle. https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0658/7343/files/Combi_Q_S_fitting_instructions_USA_EURO.pdf?484

 

Once the bank is fully charged, i.e. drawing only its tail current, increase the voltage to the equalisation level, (on my charger this is 15.5V), and the amps drawn should increase, but not by much.

 

Ideally, after a few hours, if/when a chunk of the sulphation is "blown off the plates and back into the electrolyte solution, the capacity of the bank will increase, the voltage will fall and the amps drawn will increase.

 

Sterling says that it's possible that the voltage could fall to around 12.5V and, if something like this happens, you should revert to normal charging setting until the batteries are fully charged to their recovered capacity.

 

So... in Tom and Bex case, it seems to me that their equalising may be working perfectly. I dont think they mention the voltage when the amps drawn increases to the 35A or so. It would be interesting to see whether the voltage remains at 15.5V when the amps increase to 35A, or does it fall, even if not as low as 12.5V.

 

Edited January 19, 2017 by Richard10002

[nicknorman]

Can we consider the possibility/likelihood that there is nothing wrong?

 

It strikes me that the idea of equalising is to remove sulphation from the plates, thus increasing the battery capacity, and one would expect the amps drawn to increase at the moment the capacity increase.

 

My understanding of what ideally happens whilst equalising a sulphated battery is as follows, (based upon Sterlings description in my Pro Combi Charger Inverter manual:

 

Page 3 "What to expect on this cycle. https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0658/7343/files/Combi_Q_S_fitting_instructions_USA_EURO.pdf?484

 

Once the bank is fully charged, i.e. drawing only its tail current, increase the voltage to the equalisation level, (on my charger this is 15.5V), and the amps drawn should increase, but not by much.

 

Ideally, after a few hours, if/when a chunk of the sulphation is "blown off the plates and back into the electrolyte solution, the capacity of the bank will increase, the voltage will fall and the amps drawn will increase.

 

Sterling says that it's possible that the voltage could fall to around 12.5V and, if something like this happens, you should revert to normal charging setting until the batteries are fully charged to their recovered capacity.

 

So... in Tom and Bex case, it seems to me that their equalising may be working perfectly. I dont think they mention the voltage when the amps drawn increases to the 35A or so. It would be interesting to see whether the voltage remains at 15.5V when the amps increase to 35A, or does it fall, even if not as low as 12.5V.

Anything is possible with batteries - they have a mind of their own. It's just that Tom's experience with batteries is so far removed from my own to be suspicious. I've never seen more than 15A and never seen a current increase with time.

[ditchcrawler]

Anything is possible with batteries - they have a mind of their own. It's just that Tom's experience with batteries is so far removed from my own to be suspicious. I've never seen more than 15A and never seen a current increase with time.

Perhaps you never fully de-sulphate yours

[Mr Pugs]

Morning All

 

I have some what the same setup as Tom and but with Trogan Batterys I also have the same problem

4x T105

1K Solar (80A Outback Controller)

20A basic battery charger

70A or so Alternator

 

Just ordered a 40A Sterling charger after chatting on here

 

Donal

[nicknorman]

Perhaps you never fully de-sulphate yours

Ice cream makes you fat:-) Anyway I rarely need to de-sulphate but when I do, I do it until the specific gravity is back up to the nominal 1.277 so that isn't the issue. The issue might be that I don't allow significant sulphation to build up in the first place, but then looking at Tom's reported sgs his aren't that badly sulphated either.