Advice on inconveniently located frame

[Kate89]

So renovations on the new boat are well underway!

We've removed the steps under both of the mid hatches only to find both have large metal frames below them. I assume they're providing some sort of brace support to the boat. The only problem is that we were planning on having a c-shaped kitchen on the left side of the boat, so the frame on the left could be hidden in a cabinet, however the frame on the right side is where the walkway would be so it's very much in the way... we're assuming that removing it all together would have catastrophic consequences so we're considering modifying it in some way so it's less intrusive, for example trimming it to an L-shape, however I'm not sure if this would weaken it too much.

I've put the idea to our surveyor and we're waiting for his response, but I was just wondering if anyone out there has dealt with this problem before? Any ideas? Obviously we could just have a galley kitchen instead which would hide both frames but we really had our hearts set on a c-shaped one.

 

 

[pearley]

There is certainly nothing like that in our boat. I recall some braces being fitted when the shell was being built but these were just lengths of angle iron and were removed once the sides and roof were on. I can't see that removing them would effect the structure. If you know the shell builder youbcould ask him.

[WotEver]

There is certainly nothing like that in our boat. I recall some braces being fitted when the shell was being built but these were just lengths of angle iron and were removed once the sides and roof were on. I can't see that removing them would effect the structure. If you know the shell builder you could ask him.

 

Agreed. I suspect that they're temporary braces that the yard didn't bother to remove because they were hidden, and any extra bracing can't be bad.

 

I second the suggestion to speak to the builder if you know him.

[Kate89]

There is certainly nothing like that in our boat. I recall some braces being fitted when the shell was being built but these were just lengths of angle iron and were removed once the sides and roof were on. I can't see that removing them would effect the structure. If you know the shell builder youbcould ask him.

That's a good idea, it's a David Piper boat so I'll see if I can contact them directly.

[bizzard]

Quite common in some elderly boats. I'd leave it alone and perhaps incorporate it into a quarter size bulkhead or something to hide it. If you trim it, only trim it a little bit. Elderly boats often had thinner hull side plating than more modern boats, often 3/16'' which your boat might have.

[MtB]

There are some frames vaguely like that in one of my boats. They were put there to hold the sides in place after chaining them in the get the width down to under 7ft.

Maybe your boat used to have middle age spread.

[1agos]

Are you sure that isn't support for some earlier steps and not structural - as has been said best speak to Mr Piper

[alan_fincher]

Quite common in some elderly boats. I'd leave it alone and perhaps incorporate it into a quarter size bulkhead or something to hide it. If you trim it, only trim it a little bit. Elderly boats often had thinner hull side plating than more modern boats, often 3/16'' which your boat might have.

 

This is the advice I would follow here, unless you can get a positive reply from the builder that removing them would cause no ill effects.

 

It looks quite possibly structural to me, and removing might cause unwanted problems.

 

When was the boat built?

[Kate89]

Quite common in some elderly boats. I'd leave it alone and perhaps incorporate it into a quarter size bulkhead or something to hide it. If you trim it, only trim it a little bit. Elderly boats often had thinner hull side plating than more modern boats, often 3/16'' which your boat might have.

 

 

It's a 1987 boat. Measurements from the survey:

'The hull sides measured between 5.9 - 6.0 mms and the cabin sides 3.9 mms; the roof measured 4.0 mms.'

Is this thinner than modern boats?

 

 

 

There are some frames vaguely like that in one of my boats. They were put there to hold the sides in place after chaining them in the get the width down to under 7ft.

Maybe your boat used to have middle age spread.

Middle aged spread happens to boats?! Poor Moksha!

 

 

Are you sure that isn't support for some earlier steps and not structural - as has been said best speak to Mr Piper

 

 

 

This is the advice I would follow here, unless you can get a positive reply from the builder that removing them would cause no ill effects.

 

It looks quite possibly structural to me, and removing might cause unwanted problems.

 

When was the boat built?

It's a 1987 boat, I've just sent an email to the generic David Piper email address, so I'll see what they say.

[blackrose]

How does a C shaped kitchen fit into a narrowboat exactly? Where is the back of the C? If the top and bottom of the C fit along the port and starboard sides of the boat then those braces wouldn't be a problem, so that's obviously not what you're proposing. But I can't imagine any other way of getting a C shaped kitchen into the space without blocking access.

[MtB]

How does a C shaped kitchen fit into a narrowboat exactly? Where is the back of the C? If the top and bottom of the C fit along the port and starboard sides of the boat then those braces wouldn't be a problem, so that's obviously not what you're proposing. But I can't imagine any other way of getting a C shaped kitchen into the space without blocking access.

 

 

That would depend surely, on whether is was an upper case letter 'C' or lower case letter 'c'...

[Bee]

If you bought a shell from David Piper and it had them in you wouldn't half be cross as they could be smack bang in the middle of the lounge or something. I guess that they were supports for steps(?) or something put in during the fit out. If you cut them out then a bit of framing welded in will suffice.

[blackrose]

This is a C (or U) kitchen fitted into the back of a widebeam, with access to the stern deck via steps through the centre. If you did this galley style on a narrowboat by just having worktops along the sides, you could create quite a big kitchen and yet keep it quite open plan and spacious. Also those braces could just be built into the cupboards if required.

[Kate89]

How does a C shaped kitchen fit into a narrowboat exactly? Where is the back of the C? If the top and bottom of the C fit along the port and starboard sides of the boat then those braces wouldn't be a problem, so that's obviously not what you're proposing. But I can't imagine any other way of getting a C shaped kitchen into the space without blocking access.

 

I've had to do a very basic hand drawn (and definitely not to scale!!) plan to explain. As you can see the starboard brace would be in the walkway, the frame/brace on the port side isn't a problem as it can be hidden in a cupboard.

 

[blackrose]

That would depend surely, on whether is was an upper case letter 'C' or lower case letter 'c'...

Ok, I'm still not really getting it. Perhaps I'm being a bit thick or perhaps that's your attempt at a joke.

[Kate89]

 

 

That would depend surely, on whether is was an upper case letter 'C' or lower case letter 'c'...

Lower case definitely... surely there's no room for capital letter layouts on a 50 ft narrowboat?!

[blackrose]

 

I've had to do a very basic hand drawn (and definitely not to scale!!) plan to explain. As you can see the starboard brace would be in the walkway, the frame/brace on the port side isn't a problem as it can be hidden in a cupboard.

 

Ok I see. I appreciate it's not to scale, but that does look like quite a fat narrowboat. Also I think it takes up more space than a galley.

Edited December 5, 2016 by blackrose

[Kate89]

Ok, I'm still not really getting it. Perhaps I'm being a bit thick or perhaps that's your attempt at a joke.

Sorry my drawing is terrible! You might just have to take my word for it that the frame on the right will be in the way!

 

Edit - just seen your reply, yes it's a wannabe widebeam

Edited December 5, 2016 by Kate89

[RLWP]

I imagine the corridor used to change sides originally

 

Richard

[blackrose]

The advantage of a galley is that it has dual functionality: as a kitchen and also a passage through the boat so space is saved. However the disadvantage is that if someone is cooking and someone else wants to get past the chef has to move.

 

Edit: the other advantage of a galley is that it's less likely to interfere with the trim of the boat in the water.

Edited December 5, 2016 by blackrose

[nb Innisfree]

You could have new braces bolted/welded in to suit proposed layout, then remove present ones.

[Kate89]

I imagine the corridor used to change sides originally

 

Richard

The frames/braces were originally covered by the steps to the hatches which we have now removed, and the bathroom was smaller and the corner cut at an angle so the walkway/corridor wasn't obstructed. We're changing the layout to try and make best use of space, we felt that the stairs to the hatches took up a lot of valuable space, and the bathroom was tiny!

[David Mack]

Is this a steel cabined boat? If so I would just cut both of these plates out completely. The cabin should be more than adequate to hold the sides in place.

 

If you leave them in place, even trimmed back a bit they will get in the way. And as you won't be able to insulate them as well as the rest of the shell (unless you build a big box around them), they will be a source of condensation.

 

Other boats don't have them. Neither should you.

[Kate89]

Is this a steel cabined boat? If so I would just cut both of these plates out completely. The cabin should be more than adequate to hold the sides in place.

 

If you leave them in place, even trimmed back a bit they will get in the way. And as you won't be able to insulate them as well as the rest of the shell (unless you build a big box around them), they will be a source of condensation.

 

Other boats don't have them. Neither should you.

Yes it's a steel cabin. That was my concern with the insulation too, we've forked out on lots of lovely new insulation boards and then we'd have this ugly box thing to contend with! I'll await a response from the David Piper people but I've got my fingers crossed that they are of the same opinion as you.

[blackrose]

Imagine if you cut them out，stepped off the boat feeling satisfied with your work, looked over your shoulder and then the entire boat imploded!