Generator

[nicknorman]

Yes indeed, it needs to be borne in mind that with bog-standard leisure batteries you should never allow the tank to become less than half full. It's a simple enough rule to follow though.

Well yes but let's remember it is a soft rule. It is not as though 51% = sweetness and light and 49% = catastrophe. I know you know this, I'm just saying...

[MtB]

Yes indeed, it needs to be borne in mind that with bog-standard leisure batteries you should never allow the tank to become less than half full. It's a simple enough rule to follow though.

 

 

True, but only if someone tells you about it.

 

The casual user is quite unlikely to know unless s/he reads this forum. I'm not even sure the manual paperwork says this. It ought to be marked on the SG case!

[Alan de Enfield]

Yes indeed, it needs to be borne in mind that with bog-standard leisure batteries you should never allow the tank to become less than half full. It's a simple enough rule to follow though.

 

And a good rule to follow for your fuel tank as well :

Reduces condensation / water in the tank

Gives 'reserve' in times of difficulty (frozen in, closures, fuel shortages etc)

Reduces the chance of 'sucking muck up' (less 'sloshing' about with a full tank)

[WotEver]

True, but only if someone tells you about it.

 

The casual user is quite unlikely to know unless s/he reads this forum. I'm not even sure the manual paperwork says this. It ought to be marked on the SG case!

Good point well made

[MtB]

Yeahiknow...

[WotEver]

 

And a good rule to follow for your fuel tank as well :

Reduces condensation / water in the tank

Gives 'reserve' in times of difficulty (frozen in, closures, fuel shortages etc)

Reduces the chance of 'sucking muck up' (less 'sloshing' about with a full tank)

Yeah, I had a girlfriend many years ago who always drove her car with less than a quarter tank of petrol (unless going on a journey). Not only did her car regularly suffer with clogged fuel filters but it even wore out the fuel gauge winding!

[chubby]

Exactly -

 

With my smartgauge today at 81 % i KNOW ( or im atleast very confident ) that i dont have to charge my batts today . Ther will be little input from my solar today as its grim and grey weather .

If tomorrow or the next day theres a prolonged period of sun then the SOC % will climb - for some reason my solar is actually good and reliable in winter . As long as im careful with power usage then then my SOC % is rarely below 85 and yesterday i ran my eber for 1!hour for hot water and then 1 hour of laundry .so today its lower than usual .

 

As an example , two winters ago i had alternator problems - lots of folk on here helped me as im a numpty . In the end there was no alternator for 5 weeks (& no genny ) . The solar kept my domestic systems going . I had to be very mindful about power usage but they survived and are still going and are now 3 & 1/4 years old . So solar is VERY worthwhile and no longer an expensive punt as it may have been considered in the past .

 

Cheers

[Richard10002]

Smartguage doesn't tell you when your batteries are full. It is inaccurate when charging such that 100% does not mean 100%.

 

Which is why you need some kind of ammeter to tell you when the batteries are drawing very few Amps when charging. I use a NASA BM2 at about a hundred quid. Others use a £10 ammeter off eBay.

[Geo]

 

 

Bear in mind even the SmartGauge still contains a massive 'Gotcha' for the uneducated user if thought of in this way.

 

With the fuel gauge on my van, I know I need to get more as it approaches ZERO. With the SmartGauge, one needs to recharge the batts when the SmartGauge falls to 50%. If a user treats a SmartGauge truly like a fuel gauge and only recharges when approaching 0%, dead batteries again will be the rapid result.

 

Which is something I have never understood about the smartgauge and its claim to be a battery fuel gauge. Gauges normally show full to Empty. Also as I understand it if the batteries' total capacity is below 50% capacity the smartgauge does not tell the truth then either.

Edited November 24, 2016 by Geo

[nicknorman]

Smartguage doesn't tell you when your batteries are full. It is inaccurate when charging such that 100% does not mean 100%.

So what exactly is your definition of 100%? In other words, under what conditions should it read 100%?

[WotEver]

Smartguage doesn't tell you when your batteries are full. It is inaccurate when charging such that 100% does not mean 100%.

 

Which is why you need some kind of ammeter to tell you when the batteries are drawing very few Amps when charging. I use a NASA BM2 at about a hundred quid. Others use a £10 ammeter off eBay.

The advice throughout this thread has been to use an ammeter in conjunction with a SmartGauge. That is pretty much always advised, even on the SmartGauge web site. However, if you read Nick's post above you'll see that he finds the SmartGauge to be pretty close to 100% accurate at 100% SoC in his own testing.

 

A battery with less than 50% capacity is broken and should be replaced.

[nicknorman]

Which is something I have never understood about the smartgauge and its claim to be a battery fuel gauge. Gauges normally show full to Empty.

 

It does show full to empty with 0% being empty. There is nothing to stop someone taking their batteries down to zero if they want to. If they are traction batteries then that would probably be no big deal. Even if they are leisure batteries it will be ok on an odd occasion albeit losing some life. It is a fuel gauge, not a gauge to tell you how to maximise your battery's life. For that you need a touch of common sense and knowledge. In the same way it just tells you when the batteries are (more or less) full. It doesn't tell you that you need to fully charge the batteries fairly often in order not to substantially shorten their life.

[WotEver]

Which is something I have never understood about the smartgauge and its claim to be a battery fuel gauge.

Let me assist with your understanding. A fuel gauge in a car shows full when the tank is full and empty when the tank is empty. A SmartGauge shows full when the battery is fully charged and empty when the battery is flat.

 

With some batteries you should never use them much below half full. With other batteries you should never take them below 20% full. Whatever the rules are for your batteries the SmartGauge enables you to follow them.

 

Is that a little clearer?

[Geo]

So what exactly is your definition of 100%? In other words, under what conditions should it read 100%?

 

When the SG is the same as it came out of the factory or as specified by the manufacturer.

[Geo]

The advice throughout this thread has been to use an ammeter in conjunction with a SmartGauge. That is pretty much always advised, even on the SmartGauge web site. However, if you read Nick's post above you'll see that he finds the SmartGauge to be pretty close to 100% accurate at 100% SoC in his own testing.

 

A battery with less than 50% capacity is broken and should be replaced.

 

I would like to see the figures that prove that statement that 'the SmartGauge to be pretty close to 100% accurate at 100% SoC' even the manufacturer states the accuracy whilst charging is 10% and that is not pretty close to 100% accurate. And none of the ones I have had through my hands have achieved anything like that on charge.

 

As for a battery being broken at 50% capacity a lot of batteries are used way below that, that is real life.

Edited November 24, 2016 by Geo

[nicknorman]

When the SG is the same as it came out of the factory or as specified by the manufacturer.

That's probably not a bad definition however there are a few practical problems:

 

Do you mean EXACTLY the same as it came out of the factory, or within some tolerance? If so, what tolerance? The sg will only be thus if the electrolyte level is identical to that at the factory. Any subsequent water loss and topping up is fairly likely to result in a different level and thus different concentration.

 

But perhaps that doesn't matter since what you are really saying is that all the sulphate is converted to acid. Fine, the only trouble is that requires an awfully long time on charge. An unrealistically and expensively long time on charge (off grid). And this is why devices such as the BMV monitors consider 100% to be at a lesser state of charge. It's a compromise. Ditto for the Smartgauge. If the Smartgauge read 100% under the conditions you say, realistically no-one would ever get it there unless they were on shore power.

I would like to see the figures that prove that statement that 'the SmartGauge to be pretty close to 100% accurate at 100% SoC' even the manufacturer states the accuracy whilst charging is 10% and that is not pretty close to 100% accurate. And none of the ones I have had through my hands have achieved anything like that on charge.

 

I would like to see the figures that prove that last statement. For starters, how many Smartgauges have you owned and for how long were they fitted to your boats? How did you verify that the batteries weren't close to 100% when the Smartgauge read 100% and how often did you cycle those batteries with the Smartgauge connected?

 

We all know that you like to pick arguments about how poor the Smartgauge is, but when you do so with the meagrest of evidence you lose credibility. (In fact, why am I even bothering! You don't have a boat anymore so I don't need to convince you!)

[WotEver]

The SmartGauge specs state "up to 10% inaccurate when charging( self-correcting. ) So as a worst-case example the batteries might be 90%+ charged when SmartGauge reads 100%. Which is why it is always recommended to use one in conjunction with an ammeter.

 

Most folk who have one however note that the accuracy is much better than that at 100%

Edited November 24, 2016 by WotEver

[Geo]

That's probably not a bad definition however there are a few practical problems:

 

Do you mean EXACTLY the same as it came out of the factory, or within some tolerance? If so, what tolerance? The sg will only be thus if the electrolyte level is identical to that at the factory. Any subsequent water loss and topping up is fairly likely to result in a different level and thus different concentration.

 

But perhaps that doesn't matter since what you are really saying is that all the sulphate is converted to acid. Fine, the only trouble is that requires an awfully long time on charge. An unrealistically and expensively long time on charge (off grid). And this is why devices such as the BMV monitors consider 100% to be at a lesser state of charge. It's a compromise. Ditto for the Smartgauge. If the Smartgauge read 100% under the conditions you say, realistically no-one would ever get it there unless they were on shore power.

 

I would like to see the figures that prove that last statement. For starters, how many Smartgauges have you owned and for how long were they fitted to your boats? How did you verify that the batteries weren't close to 100% when the Smartgauge read 100% and how often did you cycle those batteries with the Smartgauge connected?

 

We all know that you like to pick arguments about how poor the Smartgauge is, but when you do so with the meagrest of evidence you lose credibility. (In fact, why am I even bothering! You don't have a boat anymore so I don't need to convince you!)

 

I am sorry, who are you addressing you have quoted my post but are addressing someone who you say has not got a boat? Think you need to look at my profile if you are addressing me and apologise.

 

ETA If you leave sulphate on the plates, battery not fully charged, I believe you will agree that sulphate hardens and stops that area from either charging or delivering charge. The smartgauge then sees a reduced capacity battery and self sets itself to that new battery, so as to speak. Thus the next time the battery is charged the smartgauge apart from its 10% inaccuracy suggests the battery is 100% ignoring that lost capacity, but because it is not really 100%, sulphate is left which hardens and reduces capacity and the cycles continue. Thus without a battery being fully charged, all sulphate being returned to lead and sulphuric acid, the battery will gradually sulphate and die. As I suspect any manufacturer will tell you it is important that to get the best life and to meet guarantee terms that the battery is fully charged after each use.

 

Oh how many smartgauges have I had through my hands, something from memory like 8 or 9.

Edited November 24, 2016 by Geo

[WotEver]

 

I am sorry who are you addressing you have quoted my post but are addressing someone who you say has not got a boat?

So what boat do you have?

[nicknorman]

I am sorry who are you addressing you have quoted my post but are addressing someone who you say has not got a boat?

You.

[Tony Brooks]

 

I am sorry, who are you addressing you have quoted my post but are addressing someone who you say has not got a boat? Think you need to look at my profile if you are addressing me and apologise.

 

ETA If you leave sulphate on the plates, battery not fully charged, I believe you will agree that sulphate hardens and stops that area from either charging or delivering charge. The smartgauge then sees a reduced capacity battery and self sets itself to that new battery, so as to speak. Thus the next time the battery is charged the smartgauge apart from its 10% inaccuracy suggests the battery is 100% ignoring that lost capacity, but because it is not really 100%, sulphate is left which hardens and reduces capacity and the cycles continue. Thus without a battery being fully charged, all sulphate being returned to lead and sulphuric acid, the battery will gradually sulphate and die. As I suspect any manufacturer will tell you it is important that to get the best life and to meet guarantee terms that the battery is fully charged after each use.

 

Oh how many smartgauges have I had through my hands, something from memory like 8 or 9.

 

Oh boy - so a Smartguage is condemned because straight out of the box and fitted for few weeks it shows pretty much the percentage of charge in a battery as a percentage of its TRUE capacity while a gauge that needs setting up straight out of the box and after a few weeks in most boaters hands tells lies is promoted as a better gauge of battery state of charge.

 

If you are happy with that then fine. I just hope those members who are struggling to get to grips with batteries and charging are sharp enough to sort the wheat from the chaff.

 

Please apply the same standards to all battery state of charge gauges.

 

Dam, I said I would not discuss this with you any more.

 

 

 

 

[Geo]

The SmartGauge specs state "up to 10% inaccurate when charging( self-correcting. ) So as a worst-case example the batteries might be 90%+ charged when SmartGauge reads 100%. Which is why it is always recommended to use one in conjunction with an ammeter.

 

Most folk who have one however note that the accuracy is much better than that at 100%

 

I believe, as does not seem to be unusual you have not fully quoted, the self-correcting bit is when the battery goes back into discharge, not charge. In fact no where I can find in the manual does it use the words "self-correct" rather it says re-synchronise itself which is not the same or in the same context that you have used "self-correct"

 

To quote from the manual

 

"During discharge, SmartGauge can very accurately track the state of charge of the batteries. During this phase of battery usage it is possible, at certain times, for SmartGauge to actually measure the state of charge of the batteries."

 

 

"During charging this is not possible due to the presence of the charger preventing SmartGauge ever getting an opportunity to actually measure the charge status. In effect, if it tried, it would be attempting to measure the charge status of the charger"

 

 

"For this reason, it is possible that, during the charge cycle, the charge status displayed may not be totally accurate."

 

"For this reason it may not be wise to place too much faith in the charge status during charging. SmartGauge will certainly give a very good indication but it could be that SmartGauge shows the charge status to have reached (as a worst case example) 100% when in actual fact the batteries have only reached 90%".

 

"Not charging to 100% charge state is one of the most common reasons for premature battery failure. Not charging to 100% (or occasionally well in excess of 100%) causes sulfation of the plates which is the main cause of early battery death."

 

"Note that once discharging commences, SmartGauge will automatically re-synchronise itself within the first few minutes of discharge or within the first 10 minutes of resting if no load is present."

[WotEver]

Yup

 

The SmartGauge specs state "up to 10% inaccurate when charging( self-correcting. ) So as a worst-case example the batteries might be 90%+ charged when SmartGauge reads 100%. Which is why it is always recommended to use one in conjunction with an ammeter.

 

Most folk who have one however note that the accuracy is much better than that at 100%

[Geo]

You.

 

Now that is interesting so when previous to September 16 have I picked arguments about the smartgauge

[Geo]

Yup

 

The SmartGauge specs state "up to 10% inaccurate when charging( self-correcting. ) So as a worst-case example the batteries might be 90%+ charged when SmartGauge reads 100%. Which is why it is always recommended to use one in conjunction with an ammeter.

 

Most folk who have one however note that the accuracy is much better than that at 100%

 

I would be interested if you could show or point me to where on the Merlin Specification for the smartgauge it says "up to 10% inaccurate when charging( self-correcting. )" Self-correcting are the important words related to charging. For your ease of reference here is the link to the spec www.merlinequipment.com/page/document.asp?id=159

 

I am assuming there is only one smartgauge