Generator

[Geo]

So what boat do you have?

 

I have two cruisers.

[WotEver]

If you leave sulphate on the plates, battery not fully charged, I believe you will agree that sulphate hardens and stops that area from either charging or delivering charge. The smartgauge then sees a reduced capacity battery and self sets itself to that new battery, so as to speak.

Completely incorrect. The SmartGauge would note that the battery wasn't as charged as it should be and would immediately indicate <100% charge. What you have described is what an Ah counter does, which is why they are deprecated for use by inexperienced users.

 

Based on the above I don't believe that you've ever tested a single SmartGauge let alone 8 or 9 of them.

 

 

I have two cruisers.

What are their names? You appear to be unique on here as to be shy about talking about your own boat. Edited November 24, 2016 by WotEver

[Geo]

Completely incorrect. The SmartGauge would note that the battery wasn't as charged as it should be and would immediately indicate <100% charge. What you have described is what an Ah counter does, which is why they are deprecated for use by inexperienced users.

 

Based on the above I don't believe that you've ever tested a single SmartGauge let alone 8 or 9 of them.

 

What are their names? You appear to be unique on here as to be shy about talking about your own boat.

 

I am sorry the gauge does not indicate immediately and they do indicate a 100% charge when the battery is less than 100% and the manual agrees with that statement.

 

Look on my profile or even just to the left margin of this page where it shows poster data

Edited November 24, 2016 by Geo

[WotEver]

I would be interested if you could show or point me to where on the Merlin Specification for the smartgauge it says "up to 10% inaccurate when charging( self-correcting

9th & 10th paragraphs on page 23 of the user manual.

 

 

Look on my profile or even just to the left margin of this page where it shows poster data

Can't see poster data on mobile and profile shows just as little.

[mross]

http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/pdfs/manuals/sgaugeman_r203.pdfon page 23 says, "Whatever happens, whenever SmartGauge “gets it wrong”, SmartGauge realises, corrects itself"

[WotEver]

http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/pdfs/manuals/sgaugeman_r203.pdfon page 23 says, "Whatever happens, whenever SmartGauge gets it wrong, SmartGauge realises, corrects itself"

Absolutely. And anyone who had used one let alone tested one would know this to be true.

[Geo]

You

 

http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/pdfs/manuals/sgaugeman_r203.pdfon page 23 says, "Whatever happens, whenever SmartGauge “gets it wrong”, SmartGauge realises, corrects itself"

 

That only I believe applies to the discharge cycle not the charge cycle

Absolutely. And anyone who had used one let alone tested one would know this to be true.

 

Well I have one and it maybe true of the discharge cycle but not the charge cycle

[Geo]

9th & 10th paragraphs on page 23 of the user manual.

.

 

Suggest the words "once discharging commences" are important not charge cycle

 

Show me where you get this from the Merlin specification and link to it

 

Oh I notice the discharge reading is only +- 5% not 100% accurate

 

I have work to and know what the Merlin spec says and it is not what you are saying

Edited November 24, 2016 by Geo

[cuthound]

I am sorry, who are you addressing you have quoted my post but are addressing someone who you say has not got a boat? Think you need to look at my profile if you are addressing me and apologise.

 

ETA If you leave sulphate on the plates, battery not fully charged, I believe you will agree that sulphate hardens and stops that area from either charging or delivering charge. The smartgauge then sees a reduced capacity battery and self sets itself to that new battery, so as to speak. Thus the next time the battery is charged the smartgauge apart from its 10% inaccuracy suggests the battery is 100% ignoring that lost capacity, but because it is not really 100%, sulphate is left which hardens and reduces capacity and the cycles continue. Thus without a battery being fully charged, all sulphate being returned to lead and sulphuric acid, the battery will gradually sulphate and die. As I suspect any manufacturer will tell you it is important that to get the best life and to meet guarantee terms that the battery is fully charged after each use.

 

Oh how many smartgauges have I had through my hands, something from memory like 8 or 9.

You are confusing SoC with capacity.

 

A battery which has lost say 50% of its capacity is still capable of being fully charged, as indictated by rested voltage, tail current etc.

[Geo]

You are confusing SoC with capacity.

 

A battery which has lost say 50% of its capacity is still capable of being fully charged, as indictated by rested voltage, tail current etc.

 

Actually No. The post is about a specific battery that has a capacity and what is 100% charge, it can only have its full capacity (100%) when all of the sulphuric acid is returned from the sulphate to the electrolyte and thus be fully charged. Thus any that is bound up in the sulphate when the battery is allegedly fully charged, means that the capacity of the battery is reduced and when charged to the maximum that battery will take it cannot be at 100% capacity nor charged to 100% for that battery. There is not sufficient sulphuric acid left in the electrolyte to deliver that 100% of capacity. However the smartgauge will ignore that loss and reset itself to what is left telling you whatever it says. It is for that reason, the build up of sulphate, that it is important to fully charge a battery after each use and return all the sulphuric to the electrolyte otherwise there is a gradual build up of sulphate and the battery dies early with lots of lead etc available to continue its life but no way of it working because of the sulphate build up.

 

I have had people tell me that a battery is fully charged by whatever measure and yet only lasts ten minutes etc. When in fact the battery is charged to way less than its capacity. A capacity that would give the person what they needed and not just ten minutes etc. The normal problem is a sulphated battery which has probably never been fully charged in its life.

[WotEver]

That's not what a SmartGauge will do. You would appear to still not understand it very well.

[Alan de Enfield]

 

 

 

I have had people tell me that a battery is fully charged by whatever measure and yet only lasts ten minutes etc. When in fact the battery is charged to way less than its capacity. A capacity that would give the person what they needed and not just ten minutes etc. The normal problem is a sulphated battery which has probably never been fully charged in its life.

 

I think it is time to stop digging - capacity is NOT a measure of charge.

 

Are you therefore suggesting that a battery which now has a capacity of (say) 75% of its original capacity can no longer be charged to 12,8v to be classed as fully charged ?

[Geo]

That's not what a SmartGauge will do. You would appear to still not understand it very well.

 

Ah does it not resynchronise to the new effective battery. If not how can it show 95/100% with old batteries that only have say 80% of their capacity left?

[WotEver]

I am talking about short term. Boater charges his battery and thinks it's at 100% because he didn't look at his ammeter closely enough. Boater starts using his battery. SmartGauge will show him that his battery isn't at 100% in short order.

 

As opposed to an Ah counter which will happily start counting down from 100% and get worse with each cycle.

[Geo]

 

I think it is time to stop digging - capacity is NOT a measure of charge.

 

Are you therefore suggesting that a battery which now has a capacity of (say) 75% of its original capacity can no longer be charged to 12,8v to be classed as fully charged ?

 

Quite possibly, but the SG will be way down which is the true way of telling if a battery is fully. Capacity is I would suggest a measure of the amount of charge a battery holds hence why batteries are spec'd at so many Ahs. A battery will deliver its capacity of X Ahs.

[WotEver]

 

Quite possibly, but the SG will be way down which is the true way of telling if a battery is fully.

charged.

 

So how do you measure the Specific Density of a Gel battery? Or a VRSLA?

[Geo]

I am talking about short term. Boater charges his battery and thinks it's at 100% because he didn't look at his ammeter closely enough. Boater starts using his battery. SmartGauge will show him that his battery isn't at 100% in short order.

 

As opposed to an Ah counter which will happily start counting down from 100% and get worse with each cycle.

 

Well I would suggest you are using an Amp counter in the wrong way. But I notice you have moved the argument. So I gather you agree the smartgauge resynchronise to the new capacity.

charged.

 

So how do you measure the Specific Density of a Gel battery? Or a VRSLA?

 

I don't I would not have them on a boat only somewhere they were guaranteed of being fully charged from new each time they were used.

Work calls bye for now

[WotEver]

I don't change my argument to suit like some folk do. I'm still arguing the original point and refusing to follow you down your obfuscations.

I don't I would not have them on a boat only somewhere they were guaranteed of being fully charged from new each time they were used.

Thereby making your contributions useless for a very large number of boaters.

 

Goodbye.

[cuthound]

Actually No. The post is about a specific battery that has a capacity and what is 100% charge, it can only have its full capacity (100%) when all of the sulphuric acid is returned from the sulphate to the electrolyte and thus be fully charged. Thus any that is bound up in the sulphate when the battery is allegedly fully charged, means that the capacity of the battery is reduced and when charged to the maximum that battery will take it cannot be at 100% capacity nor charged to 100% for that battery. There is not sufficient sulphuric acid left in the electrolyte to deliver that 100% of capacity. However the smartgauge will ignore that loss and reset itself to what is left telling you whatever it says. It is for that reason, the build up of sulphate, that it is important to fully charge a battery after each use and return all the sulphuric to the electrolyte otherwise there is a gradual build up of sulphate and the battery dies early with lots of lead etc available to continue its life but no way of it working because of the sulphate build up.

 

I have had people tell me that a battery is fully charged by whatever measure and yet only lasts ten minutes etc. When in fact the battery is charged to way less than its capacity. A capacity that would give the person what they needed and not just ten minutes etc. The normal problem is a sulphated battery which has probably never been fully charged in its life.

Whilst you are technically correct that a battery can only be at 100% state of charge when all of the sulphate is contained within the electrolyte this is not achievable for very long in the real world.

 

During my career I have examined many batteries from a few months old up to 20 years old. I have yet to see one over a year old that has no signs of sulphation on the plates.

 

In the criticsl power industry batteries that have been kept continuously on float, and have rarely or never been discharged are routinely replaced when capacity has fallen to 80% of original capacity, often within six years of installation because of a combination of sulphation of the plates and keeping them at temperatures over 25°C.

 

By your definition any battery over 1 year old cannot be fully charged because some of the sulphate is no longer available to the electrolyte.

So how do you measure the Specific Density of a Gel battery? Or a VRSLA?

Like any other lead acid battery, by measuring tail current and off load voltage.

[WotEver]

Whilst you are technically correct that a battery can only be at 100% state of charge when all of the sulphate is contained within the electrolyte this is not achievable for very long in the real world.

 

During my career I have examined many batteries from a few months old up to 20 years old. I have yet to see one over a year old that has no signs of sulphation on the plates.

 

In the criticsl power industry batteries that have been kept continuously on float, and have rarely or never been discharged are routinely replaced when capacity has fallen to 80% of original capacity, often within six years of installation because of a combination of sulphation of the plates and keeping them at temperatures over 25°C.

 

By your definition any battery over 1 year old cannot be fully charged because some of the sulphate is no longer available to the electrolyte.

 

Like any other lead acid battery, by measuring tail current and off load voltage.

Absolutely, as we've all been trying to explain to G

 

Who states that 'the only true way of measuring it is with SG'.

[Geo]

Whilst you are technically correct that a battery can only be at 100% state of charge when all of the sulphate is contained within the electrolyte this is not achievable for very long in the real world.

 

During my career I have examined many batteries from a few months old up to 20 years old. I have yet to see one over a year old that has no signs of sulphation on the plates.

 

In the criticsl power industry batteries that have been kept continuously on float, and have rarely or never been discharged are routinely replaced when capacity has fallen to 80% of original capacity, often within six years of installation because of a combination of sulphation of the plates and keeping them at temperatures over 25°C.

 

By your definition any battery over 1 year old cannot be fully charged because some of the sulphate is no longer available to the electrolyte.

 

No where have I said that any battery over 1 year cannot be fully charged because of sulphate, rather I think that might be your definition of sulphate build up on batteries on float charge. If a battery is charged to that stage or removal of all sulphate then a battery could well be chargeable to its full capacity.

 

I suspect you will agree there is a subtle difference between batteries kept on a float change and batteries that are heavily used say 30 to 40% SoC used daily.

 

I also suspect we agree that to get best life out of a battery it should be fully recharged quite quickly after it has been used. What I find concerning is people recharging batteries to say 80/90% and doing that for days maybe a week or more. Then recharging them to what they believe is full charge and not realising that some of that sulphate that has been laid down in those days/weeks of discharge has got to the stage where a simple charge will not remove it, not even a high voltage charge remove it, even though a high voltage charge can do other damage. However the result of this continuing cycle of part charge, part charge etc followed by a believed full charge is a gradual increase in the sulphate on the plates as they continue their regime of undercharge, undercharge and so on then full charge and back round the loop again. That sulphate is building and reducing capacity and killing the battery all because they will not fully charge the batteries after use.

 

I know the arguments about cost etc off grid. But I wonder if someone has good batteries that should last say 6 years or more and they only last 2 years or maybe a year. I think individuals have to work that out for themselves. I think I would charge them, but it would be an inbuilt diesel generator not a noisy portable petrol thing. Far too dangerous to have on a boat in my opinion. Most boat fires down here are petrol related.

 

Years ago I was responsible for a computer centre, one of my responsibilities was emergency power, hence there were batteries to supply that. I had people whose task it was to keep those batteries checked etc. Anyway one of the guys brought me an article by someone in the industry. The author argued that emergency batteries should not be kept on a float charge; rather they should be left to self-discharge down to 80% or thereabouts and then given a good charge. The argument being that the voltage during a float charge was not sufficiently high enough to deal with any sulphate deposited while the batteries were standing on a float charge. He believed that allowed to decay to 80% and then banging them on a full charge the voltage and time were sufficiently high and long enough to clear the sulphate. Now I can see where he was going and I could see a nice saving in my budget, until I thought it through.

 

Power loss there did not tend to happen once and then not happen for a long-time, the supply line was overhead. We used to get a couple in a day when it happened. So what happens when the power dies and the batteries are used with no automatic float charge to go to full charge to recharge the batteries, flat batteries for break two and questions from the bosses. I did not get my budget saving and we kept dumping part used batteries, a lot went on boats. Eventually I managed to get the budget to pay for two underground supplies and life got a lot easier in that respect, from 5 or 6 supply failures a year to one in 3 years. I suppose I could have tried the discharge to 80% idea then, but I moved on soon after and it was someone else’s problem.

Edited November 24, 2016 by Geo

[Geo]

Like any other lead acid battery, by measuring tail current and off load voltage.

 

Which was a system invented to allow for sealed cells. I believe you will find that the off load voltage is measured is it 12 or 24 hours after last charge or discharge. Tail current I think is a boaters invention, albeit it gives a better idea than measuring voltage etc as to the approach of the battery having taken all the charge it can take.

Edited November 24, 2016 by Geo

[mross]

deleted

Edited November 24, 2016 by mross

[cuthound]

Which was a system invented to allow for sealed cells. I believe you will find that the off load voltage is measured is it 12 or 24 hours after last charge or discharge. Tail current I think is a boaters invention, albeit it gives a better idea than measuring voltage etc as to the approach of the battery having taken all the charge it can take.

When I started my career in 1972 I was allocated to the power maintenence team, where I was responsible for charging the main batteries for telephone exchanges in the area.

 

We charged to specific gravity, as well as measuring the tail curent every 30 minutes towards the end date of a charge. When it had remained constant for two 30 minutes periods the batteries were considered charged.

 

Also it was not unusual for the specific gravity to rise by another point after charging ceased. I believe this was due to the battery gassing ceasing when the charge stopped.

 

I was also familiar with one old installation where two batteries were used on a charge/discharge principle (one battery being connected to the load whilst one the other was charged from a motor generator set and then left to rest until needed. I cant remember to what level the load battery was discharged to, but it wasnt much. Changeover and charging took place twice per week. These batteries must have been 20 years old then, so this regime must have been kind to batteries.

[WotEver]

Tail current measurement is far from 'something invented by boaters', it's been an accepted practice for years. The Battery faq mentions it as a method and I seem to recall that Trojan even list it as one method of determining 'full' charge.

 

It's also how the majority of chargers determine when to switch to float.