Generator

[Geo]

 

There are two data sheets. Not sure why.

 

http://news.yuasa.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Pro-Spec-leaflet.pdf

 

http://www.yuasa.co.uk/yuasa/datasheet/index/sku/DCB105-6(ET)/

 

I paid £93.08 plus VAT each for four, collected from a battery supplier warehouse in Surbiton called CPC. Very helpful and well organised small business.

 

http://www.cpcbatteries.co.uk/

 

So that would be £111.70 inc vat plus deliver I suspect if you did not collect

[WotEver]

 

 

And that is where solar becomes 'useful'.

use your alternator (or generator) to get to 85%-90% SoC, then let Solar spend the 'hours' doing the final bit.

 

It does become bit more difficult November to March when your Solar is maybe only producing 5% of its 'rated' output.

Absolutely so on both counts

[Tony Brooks]

 

On one hand you have paid for help making recommendations that may well get him more paid for work. On the other you have more than one person with a history of reliable contributions to forums and who can not possibly have any other addenda than trying to help giving other advice.

 

For goodness sake Tim please get this into your head for YOUR OWN SAKE.

 

1. The meter recommended by your chap requires at least some paid for help to fit, if only to crimp terminals to heavy cable.

 

2. You can fit a Smartguage. Its two thin wires and a fuse.

 

3. The meter recommended by your chap WILL assist you in destroying whatever batteries you fit with your present state of knowledge and methods of operation.

 

4. You only need an ammeter to tell you when to stop charging, nothing fancy. A voltmeter first thing in the morning when it is still dark will be near enough to tell you when to start charging if you do not want a Smartguage.

 

5. Any form of sealed battery makes it difficult for an ordinary boater to test their batteries without taking them out of service one at a time for about a week plus a bit of a rigmarole.

 

Mike is a very good technician in his field so understand things like fault finding and sorting good advice from the less good but he has been through a very similar to the journey you have just started on. I think he has got the hang of batteries etc.

[Alan de Enfield]

 

If he can get a Victron installed etc for 120 then I suspect it will not be much more that a simple ammeter and the cost of getting it installed. Add to that a smartgauge as I mentioned earlier I would then think he has everything he could want for battery management.

 

 

I read his post as saying they would "install the batteries and the monitor for £120", not that they would provide, and install.

 

"....and they could fit them for me along with the victor on monitor for an extra £120"

[Geo]

I very much doubt that the cost of £120 for installation of the BVM and batteries also included supply of the BVM. If it did then the boatyard are charging nothing for their labour.

 

May there could be a tradeoff for the battery supply as well. I don't know only the OP knows as he spoke to them.

 

But I have a suspicion that AGMs might be the answer here. All depends on whether he can easily get to the battery tops and see the water level to top up.

[MtB]

 

 

And that is where solar becomes 'useful'.

use your alternator (or generator) to get to 85%-90% SoC, then let Solar spend the 'hours' doing the final bit.

 

It does become bit more difficult November to March when your Solar is maybe only producing 5% of its 'rated' output.

 

 

As much as that eh? Must be something wrong with mine then.

 

As an example I have 560W of solar and day before yesterday at 11am (when I last looked at the monitor) it was charging at 0.2A.

 

Maximum theoretical charging output into 24v is about 22A. 0.2A is closer to 1% not 5%

[WotEver]

But I have a suspicion that AGMs might be the answer here. All depends on whether he can easily get to the battery tops and see the water level to top up.

So what? What has that got to do with his battery monitoring?

[MtB]

 

So that would be £111.70 inc vat plus deliver I suspect if you did not collect

 

Yes, delivery was £40 plus VAT but I was passing by so I called in and collected.

[Tony Brooks]

 

As for the TB link I think you had a hand in writing that ........

 

 

 

Only as far as pointing out where it could be clarified or slightly enhanced. The bulk of that is my work specifically because the things cause so much trouble. WotEver did the Battery Charging and Terms pieces.

Edited November 23, 2016 by wrigglefingers
removed username

[Alan de Enfield]

 

 

As much as that eh? Must be something wrong with mine then.

 

As an example I have 560W of solar and day before yesterday at 11am (when I last looked at the monitor) it was charging at 0.2A.

 

Maximum theoretical charging output into 24v is about 22A. 0.2A is closer to 1% not 5%

 

That is true for a 'spot-reading' - however, look at your controller and monitor the KwH produced over a 'period', you may find that it averages nearer 5% that 1%

Cold but clear Winter days can be surprisingly productive.

[Geo]

 

 

On one hand you have paid for help making recommendations that may well get him more paid for work. On the other you have more than one person with a history of reliable contributions to forums and who can not possibly have any other addenda than trying to help giving other advice.

 

For goodness sake Tim please get this into your head for YOUR OWN SAKE.

 

1. The meter recommended by your chap requires at least some paid for help to fit, if only to crimp terminals to heavy cable.

 

2. You can fit a Smartguage. Its two thin wires and a fuse.

 

3. The meter recommended by your chap WILL assist you in destroying whatever batteries you fit with your present state of knowledge and methods of operation.

 

4. You only need an ammeter to tell you when to stop charging, nothing fancy. A voltmeter first thing in the morning when it is still dark will be near enough to tell you when to start charging if you do not want a Smartguage.

 

5. Any form of sealed battery makes it difficult for an ordinary boater to test their batteries without taking them out of service one at a time for about a week plus a bit of a rigmarole.

 

Mike is a very good technician in his field so understand things like fault finding and sorting good advice from the less good but he has been through a very similar to the journey you have just started on. I think he has got the hang of batteries etc.

 

 

But the most important point is the Smartgauge does not tell you when the batteries are fully charged. The only way I know without taking specific gravity readings is to measure the tail current and when it is down to 1% or less and not decreasing accept that as full. The victron will do that standing on its head. add the smartgauge to tell you when the to charge the batteries. But from the little I know of your usage that will be everyday anyway.

[MtB]

So what? What has that got to do with his battery monitoring?

 

 

I think Geo is suggesting that AGMs would be the correct type of battery to fit if the battery bay is in a stupid place with no practical access to maintain the electrolyte level. We've all seen boats like this I'm sure.

 

My suggestion would be to move the battery bank to somewhere accessible.

[WotEver]

 

But the most important point is the Smartgauge does not tell you when the batteries are fully charged. The only way I know without taking specific gravity readings is to measure the tail current and when it is down to 1% or less and not decreasing accept that as full. The victron will do that standing on its head. add the smartgauge to tell you when the to charge the batteries. But from the little I know of your usage that will be everyday anyway.

BMV = £110+

Ammeter = £10 ish

 

Do you want to give Tim the extra £100?

 

 

I think Geo is suggesting that AGMs would be the correct type of battery to fit if the battery bay is in a stupid place with no practical access to maintain the electrolyte level. We've all seen boats like this I'm sure.

 

My suggestion would be to move the battery bank to somewhere accessible.

But he quoted my post about battery monitoring. Accessibility of the batteries is irrelevant in that context.

[Alan de Enfield]

 

 

I think Geo is suggesting that AGMs would be the correct type of battery to fit if the battery bay is in a stupid place with no practical access to maintain the electrolyte level. We've all seen boats like this I'm sure.

 

My suggestion would be to move the battery bank to somewhere accessible.

 

That may well assist in battery 'maintenance' but will do nothing to aid battery 'monitoring'

[WotEver]

And accuracy of your £10 unit and the cost of getting it installed?

Accuracy = quite good enough to see when it's stopped dropping.

 

Cost for installation = £120 including fitting the batteries. Tim has already said that.

 

Edit to stop Tim being Tom

Edited November 23, 2016 by WotEver

[Geo]

Accuracy = quite good enough to see when it's stopped dropping.

 

Cost for installation = £120 including fitting the batteries. Tim has already said that.

 

Edit to stop Tim being Tom

 

plus the cost of a 500A shunt for it I believe they only come with a 100A shunt

Accuracy = quite good enough to see when it's stopped dropping.

 

Cost for installation = £120 including fitting the batteries. Tim has already said that.

 

Edit to stop Tim being Tom

 

What Tim said was,

 

 

He said he can get me new AGM,s 220ah as to replace ones I already have, but he said they would be around £400 each,but agreed I could probably get them cheaper on line ,and they could fit them for me along with the victor on monitor for an extra £120 .

 

 

not that they would fit a cheap ammeter for £120

Edited November 23, 2016 by Geo

[Alan de Enfield]

Have some post been removed ?

 

(around 09:20 - 09:30)

[WotEver]

 

What Tim said was,

 

 

 

 

not that they would fit a cheap ammeter for £120

Yes, that is correct. That is what Tim said. What is your point?

Have some post been removed ?

 

(around 09:20 - 09:30)

Yup.

[Alan de Enfield]

 

Yup.

 

Thought so - I had just spent some time (due to my poor typing skills) doing a reply to a post, and when I clicked 'send' I got a message that I was not authorised.

 

After re-booting - the post I was replying to was no longer there.

Edited November 23, 2016 by Alan de Enfield

[MtB]

Yup.

 

 

Have the authors been informed of which rule they breached?

 

Just curious. I didn't notice any particularly contentious posts.

[WotEver]

 

 

Have the authors been informed of which rule they breached?

 

Just curious. I didn't notice any particularly contentious posts.

They hadn't until I PMd the mod. Balance is now restored.

Edited November 23, 2016 by WotEver

[Tony Brooks]

 

But the most important point is the Smartgauge does not tell you when the batteries are fully charged. The only way I know without taking specific gravity readings is to measure the tail current and when it is down to 1% or less and not decreasing accept that as full. The victron will do that standing on its head. add the smartgauge to tell you when the to charge the batteries. But from the little I know of your usage that will be everyday anyway.

 

I think it is you who says this every time the Smartguage is recommend. If I am right this makes your point less than reliable advice because NO ONE in this topic has advocated Smartguage alone.

 

I and other have advocated an ammeter plus Smartguage. I have actually said that a voltmeter read first thing in the morning while it is still dark will be near enough to say if and when the batteries need recharging.

 

The OP, through no fault of his own, has shown a complete faith in instruments that tell him lies so recommending another with similar characteristics is not exactly a good move, is it.

 

Now we all acknowledge that the Smartguage can be up to 10% out when charging but even if the OP used one to know when to stop charging he would still be 90% fully charged. Can you absolutely guarantee the Victron and similar will only ever be less than 10% out with charge percentage IN THE HANDS OF A TYPICAL BOATER?

 

In short you are trying to attribute meanings to peoples post that are untrue. I wonder if you are the chap who recommended AGMs and the Victron.

[Geo]

 

Now we all acknowledge that the Smartguage can be up to 10% out when charging but even if the OP used one to know when to stop charging he would still be 90% fully charged. Can you absolutely guarantee the Victron and similar will only ever be less than 10% out with charge percentage IN THE HANDS OF A TYPICAL BOATER?

 

In short you are trying to attribute meanings to peoples post that are untrue. I wonder if you are the chap who recommended AGMs and the Victron.

 

For starter I have not recommend anything if you read my posts. I have said that I suspect that in this case it could be if the OP cannot easily get to the tops of the batteries when installed to check the electrolyte level then the AGMs might well be a better bet. If the OP can get a Victron, which I know you dislike, I seem to remember seeing they would not let you have one to test, could be wrong, for a £120 installed etc as well as his batteries. Then I strongly suspect that will be cheaper than buying a cheap ammeter, getting that installed plus buying a 500A shunt for it, I believe they tend to come with 100A shunts.

 

There are two important aspects to battery charging management. When to charge and when to stop charging. In the former a voltage reading will tell the OP when he has used the batteries to a point that they need charging. In the latter case there are two reliable way that I know measure the SG or measure the tail current. The Victron will do both to a good accuracy and repeatability. Also I believe the OP has solar panels now surely when they are pushing any charge into the batteries because of the smartgauge's inaccuracy while the batteries are charging it becomes unreliable.

 

I have two Victrons one on each boat and one smartgauge, I find the smartgauge not needed box. I use the two Victrons and a quick flick of the buttons gives the both the readings I need.

 

Are you saying that I am lying because that is how I interpret your last line?

Edited November 23, 2016 by Geo

[cuthound]

 

AGM batteries cannot be topped up and in order to protect the electrolyte, MUST be charged at a lower current (i.e. takes longer) than an equivalent open cell battery.

 

All the above is as I understand it. I'm still learning myself.

AGM batteries can usually accept a higher charge currently the than a normal "wet" battery, especially in the early "bulk" stage of the charge, so usually charge quicker.

 

You are correct they need slightly lower charge voltages, especially float. This is because the electrolyte is gaseous, hydrogen and oxygen are recombined during charging to form water which is absorbed into the fibreglass matting. The pressure of the gas is regulated by a pressure relief valve. Excessive voltage results I excessive gassing g, the problem opens and vents precious electrolyte to atmosphere. In the commercial world this type of battery is more commonly known as a valve regulated sealed lead acid battery (VRSLA) or recombination battery.

 

With regards to your batteries MtB, in my experience of commercial installations, Yuasa are the most reliable brand of battery, especially their pure lead plated VRSLA's

[Tony Brooks]

You can interpret my post how you like as you seem to have special status with some who run this site.

 

By posting your disagreements to advice you ARE recommending. You are recommending that other advice is wrong and yours is correct - in short you are recommending the OP purchases a Victron or similar and at his present state of knowledge it will do all that he needs. That is your point of view, it is not mine and not others.

 

I note that you are making not making full quotes - presumably to suit your agenda.

 

I am saying that to advocate a Victron or similar ON ITS OWN to someone who believed that when a solar controller said it was in float meant fully charged batteries is irresponsible or worse.

 

I also note that you decline to answer my question that implies that in the hands of a typical canal boater a Smartguage will eventually end up more accurate at indicating when to stop charging than the Victron and similar.

 

I am not going to waste time arguing the point with you because I suspect to do so would result in Mod action. I hope the OP is adept at reading between lines.

Edited November 23, 2016 by Tony Brooks