Licence Costs

[Rob-M]

I see the CRT licence is to rise by 2.5% from 1 April 2017.

 

From CRT Boaters Update

 

We’ve just announced the changes we’ll be making to licence fees in 2017-18. Private and business boat licence fees will rise by 2.5% from 1 April 2017. Having capped licence fees to inflation for the past three years, the 2017 increase anticipates next year’s prevailing inflation rate which is widely forecast to rise between now and next summer.

[Wanderer Vagabond]

Yes, I'd got the same e-mail and I suspect they will probably be right as to where inflation will be by next summer. Interesting to read their figure whereby the income derived from boaters has fallen from 19.9% of total income down to 18.3%, or expressed differently 81.7% of expenditure doesn't come from boaters. We are clearly an important income stream but, by no means the principal.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

I see the CRT licence is to rise by 2.5% from 1 April 2017.

 

From CRT Boaters Update

 

We’ve just announced the changes we’ll be making to licence fees in 2017-18. Private and business boat licence fees will rise by 2.5% from 1 April 2017. Having capped licence fees to inflation for the past three years, the 2017 increase anticipates next year’s prevailing inflation rate which is widely forecast to rise between now and next summer.

Historically, price increases for the following April are set using current CPI not anticipated CPI. As such under CaRT we have had increases of CPI+2% followed by three years of CPI and now CPI +1.5%.

 

It's difficult to find any justification for an above CPI price increase.

[Sea Dog]

 

Having capped licence fees to inflation for the past three years, the 2017 increase anticipates next year’s prevailing inflation rate which is widely forecast to rise between now and next summer.

Ooh, an 'anticipared inflationary rise' that's an interesting approach! Rather a self licking lollipop methinks. I'm surprised such a move for that reason is even legal - it probably shouldn't be.

[furnessvale]

Yes, I'd got the same e-mail and I suspect they will probably be right as to where inflation will be by next summer. Interesting to read their figure whereby the income derived from boaters has fallen from 19.9% of total income down to 18.3%, or expressed differently 81.7% of expenditure doesn't come from boaters. We are clearly an important income stream but, by no means the principal.

However, as individuals per capita, we are by far the largest contributors, a fact that should not be lost on CRT in its dash to accommodate those whose individual contribution is zero.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[Alan de Enfield]

Ooh, an 'anticipared inflationary rise' that's an interesting approach! Rather a self licking lollipop methinks. I'm surprised such a move for that reason is even legal - it probably shouldn't be.

 

C&RTs 'agreement' to hold increase at CPI will be expiring next year - they are therefore (legally) able to charge any amount they wish.

 

If they want to double licence prices, you either 'pay up' or 'get off the pot', you have no right to challenge.

 

If your local supermarket increase its prices, you go elsewhere you can do the same with your boat. It may not be convenient but it can be done.

 

 

Interesting the 'bit' the OP left out of the press release :

 

The rise in licence fees will raise income to ensure that we can continue to sustain the increased spend on waterway maintenance over recent years. This has seen an improvement in the structural condition of the waterways and a significant reduction in the amount of disruption experienced by boaters (with almost 300 days fewer of unplanned navigation closures compared with 2014/15).

 

I think many people will find the 'significant reduction of the amount of disruption' at 'odds' with the reality of cruising the cut.

 

Edit to remove eeexttra letters.

Edited October 22, 2016 by Alan de Enfield

[Sea Dog]

C&RTs 'agreement' to hold increase at CPI will be expiring next year - they are therefore (legally) able to charge any amount they wish.

 

 

My point was more to do with the idea that if everyone puts their prices up in anticipation of inflation, the result is inflation.

[Boat&Bikes]

Unlike many here i am generally happy with CRT. It is a reasonable increase and i think the fee gives good value.

 

Ian.

[Alan de Enfield]

My point was more to do with the idea that if everyone puts their prices up in anticipation of inflation, the result is inflation.

 

If that was your point, then apologies - I read it ("I'm surprised such a move for that reason is even legal") as you were questioning the legality.

[Laurie Booth]

My point was more to do with the idea that if everyone puts their prices up in anticipation of inflation, the result is inflation.

A self fulfilling prophecy

[Sea Dog]

If that was your point, then apologies - I read it ("I'm surprised such a move for that reason is even legal") as you were questioning the legality.

No apology required Alan. You queried;I explained.

[Midnight]

Interesting the 'bit' the OP left out of the press release :

 

<snip>

. This has seen an improvement in the structural condition of the waterways and a significant reduction in the amount of disruption experienced by boaters (with almost 300 days fewer of unplanned navigation closures compared with 2014/15).

</snip>

 

 

Probably backed up with stats but doesn't seem likely. It depends what their definition of disruption includes.

 

Maybe seems worse because the Norf has suffered more than its share of disruption (stoppages) this year..

 

A significant amount of it due to the Boxing day floods but many other failures due to poor maintenance. At one stage last June all three Pennine routes were closed! And the usually reliable Aire & Calder has had a fair few closures too.

 

To be fair a 2.5% increase isn't going to be a deal breaker and CaRT have spent a lot of money fixing things up here but this general policy of don't mend it 'til it fails completely is not good for boaters.

 

 

[Neil2]

 

...............To be fair a 2.5% increase isn't going to be a deal breaker and CaRT have spent a lot of money fixing things up here but this general policy of don't mend it 'til it fails completely is not good for boaters.

 

 

Oh I dunno - that's my policy with our boat..

[Midnight]

 

Oh I dunno - that's my policy with our boat..

 

 

OK if you're an RCR member I suppose :-)

[Athy]

The increase of 2-and-a-half% is quite modest; I'm sure that there have been steeper rises in previous years.

[Neil2]

Actuall I would rather they kept the licence fees percentage of overall revenue constant. The less boaters contribute, proportionately, the less leverage we have.

[Martin Megson]

I'm content with 2.5% it's not excessive.

[cuthound]

Actuall I would rather they kept the licence fees percentage of overall revenue constant. The less boaters contribute, proportionately, the less leverage we have.

But if they are successful in attracting new income through "friends" and other schemes, and the number of boat on the system remain constant, then the percentage of income from boaters will fall.

[Alan de Enfield]

But if they are successful in attracting new income through "friends" and other schemes, and the number of boat on the system remain constant, then the percentage of income from boaters will fall.

 

Unfortunately for the last few years the cost of securing this 'new income' (from friends, Chuggers etc) has actually cost over £1,000,000 PER YEAR* more than it has raised - therefore it could be said that boaters are actually paying an ever increasing part in funding C&RT.

Without all of this fund raising there would have been another £1 million per annum to spend on maintenance, duck lanes, Voles, court cases and signage.

 

*Figures readily available for confirmation from C&RT.

[cuthound]

Unfortunately for the last few years the cost of securing this 'new income' (from friends, Chuggers etc) has actually cost over £1,000,000 PER YEAR* more than it has raised - therefore it could be said that boaters are actually paying an ever increasing part in funding C&RT.

Without all of this fund raising there would have been another £1 million per annum to spend on maintenance, duck lanes, Voles, court cases and signage.

 

*Figures readily available for confirmation from C&RT.

That is why I started my post with the words "But if they are successful".

 

Hopefully the money spent to date is "seed corn".

 

Edited for spillung.

Edited October 22, 2016 by cuthound

[Neil2]

But if they are successful in attracting new income through "friends" and other schemes, and the number of boat on the system remain constant, then the percentage of income from boaters will fall.

 

Yes if expenditure remains constant, and I suspect CRT, and most boaters, see the pegging of the licence fee as a Good Thing, I don't.

 

It's the same with Council Tax - I don't regard it as a great achievement that CT rises have been minimised over many years now, especially when I see the result of cutbacks in local government. I realise it's not a popular view.

[Wanderer Vagabond]

 

Yes if expenditure remains constant, and I suspect CRT, and most boaters, see the pegging of the licence fee as a Good Thing, I don't.

 

It's the same with Council Tax - I don't regard it as a great achievement that CT rises have been minimised over many years now, especially when I see the result of cutbacks in local government. I realise it's not a popular view.

Not wishing to enter the political field but it seems to me that you are comparing apples with oranges. I should say that I am in total agreement with you concerning Council Tax.

 

The income to CRT is decided by them with the proviso that, in the long term, they have to find a substitute to the the largest source of income, the DEFRA grant(£49.6 million compared with £34.9 million from boaters and their moorings). At the moment Central Government isn't forcing the hand of CRT as it has done with local councils but when they start telling CRT what level licence fees should be set at your analogy will hold up, it doesn't at the moment.

Edited October 24, 2016 by FadeToScarlet

[Allan(nb Albert)]

 

Probably backed up with stats but doesn't seem likely. It depends what their definition of disruption includes.

 

Maybe seems worse because the Norf has suffered more than its share of disruption (stoppages) this year..

 

A significant amount of it due to the Boxing day floods but many other failures due to poor maintenance. At one stage last June all three Pennine routes were closed! And the usually reliable Aire & Calder has had a fair few closures too.

 

To be fair a 2.5% increase isn't going to be a deal breaker and CaRT have spent a lot of money fixing things up here but this general policy of don't mend it 'til it fails completely is not good for boaters.

 

 

The problem is not that CaRT have a 'fix on fail' policy but rather a policy of deliberately under-spending on maintenance and repair.

 

As such, they have no plan to reduce the growing maintenance backlog but rather target a few 'high priority' defects each year. However, they fail to fix all these 'high priority' defects because more defects arise during the year some of which take precedence.

 

The following shows the rise in the number of recorded defects on CaRT's waterways in the last three years -

 

1 April 2013 - 42,802 defects

1 April 2016 - 62,379 defects

I can't go back further because of changes made in the way information is recorded (in short, the figures given are low because multiple defects recorded against one asset are now shown as just one defect).

[Alan de Enfield]

The problem is not that CaRT have a 'fix on fail' policy but rather a policy of deliberately under-spending on maintenance and repair.

 

As such, they have no plan to reduce the growing maintenance backlog but rather target a few 'high priority' defects each year. However, they fail to fix all these 'high priority' defects because more defects arise during the year some of which take precedence.

 

The following shows the rise in the number of recorded defects on CaRT's waterways in the last three years -

 

1 April 2013 - 42,802 defects

1 April 2016 - 62,379 defects

I can't go back further because of changes made in the way information is recorded (in short, the figures given are low because multiple defects recorded against one asset are now shown as just one defect).

 

And, as one of our recently departed forum members pointed out, in the transition from BW to C&RT, the obligation for maintenance was conveniently left out of the requirements.

 

There may be an 'expectation', but it is difficult to criticise someone for not doing what there is no requirement for them to do.

[Jrtm]

Have crt as a trust not thought about trying to get tax payers money but gift aid they could quite easly get gift aid and this would mean prices dont go up but they get extra income.