Advice/Opinions on this boat please

[Ex-Member]

Spent two days this week looking at boats (must have seen 20 or so) Today we went to Rugby Boats, Wilton Marina and ABNB

 

Of the ones we saw today one at ABNB stood out (I can't seem to copy & paste the link) but its called Charlotte May R&D hull fitted out by Witham Narrowboats. The photos don't do it justice. It has had one owner from new & there are 3 folders of info/original build spec/invoices, service history etc. It is a tad dated but the quality of fit out is superb. It was built in 2002 and they want the asking price. The layout suits us and we could board & use it str8 away, making any changes as and when. The problem is (the usual one) it is 14 yrs old and on at £56.5k. The 'build folder' shows the original purchase invoice of £61k so not a bad return. Anyone any comments?? Ta

[alan_fincher]

Here you go....

 

Linky

 

EDIT:

 

I think your own post hits the nail on the head with the most obvious "problem".......

 

The asking price is £56,500 for a 2002 56 foot boat. That is marginally over £1,000 per foot for a 14 year old boat from a standard builder with a standard engine.

 

If it were a highly bespoke or "replica" boat, and maybe also had a very shiny well restored vintage engine, I could maybe see that kind of price tag, but it does seem very very high for a boat of this general type. One would hope there is a lot of scope for negotiation, at least.

 

Others may disagree, of course!

Edited October 2, 2016 by alan_fincher

[Ex-Member]

Here you go....

 

Linky

Ta very much!!!!

[Ben69]

Looks real nice and easy to modify to ones taste. Get a survey though on the hull and engine

Edited October 2, 2016 by Ben69

[cuthound]

Seems overpriced to me. How long has it been on sale?

 

Sometimes people have unrealistic expectations of what their pride and joy is worth, that can only be tempered by the boat languishing on a brokerage for a few months.

 

R&D are good, but not top notch shells. The fitout is nice but not exceptonal and it is not well appointed enough to justify the price, e.g only a 2kW inverter, no bow thruster etc.

 

For that money you should be able to get a newer, better appointed boat from a good boatbuilder.

[Mike Tee]

We had a R & d / Witham fit out and it was very well built and top spec. couldn't fault it - but I agree it is expensive. How many hours has the engine done?

Also at 61k new it was quite a bit cheaper than ours so maybe not such high spec.

If lived on, it's had 14 years use. If only occasionally used and well maintained could be a good buy if they will come down (around 50 would be my thinking)

[Neil2]

You're on a hiding to nothing here as the owner is "retiring" and almost certainly does not need the money ie will wait as long as it takes for someone to fall in love with it and overlook any shortcomings...

 

For example, the "permanent" cross bed could be a novelty that soon wears off. No cratch cover. Nannidiesel wouldn't be everyone's first choice of engine. Also I'd want a proper flexible drive coupling for that sort of money.

 

I agree with Alan, A 14 year old boat at almost £60k you would expect something with a bit more charisma.

 

If you're not convinced, wait a few days and go and see her again, preferably on a wet day when you can see if the lack of a cratch cover and that huge slide might be an issue.

[Ex-Member]

Thanks all good advice. I think because certain boats are selling very quickly the owner believes his will too. I was thinking of offering below £50 but the sales lady said he wants the asking prIce. I will keep an eye on it but keep looking too. It's hard work this buying a boat lark innit??

[ditchcrawler]

Thanks all good advice. I think because certain boats are selling very quickly the owner believes his will too. I was thinking of offering below £50 but the sales lady said he wants the asking prIce. I will keep an eye on it but keep looking too. It's hard work this buying a boat lark innit??

You can still make the offer, it may not be accepted.

[manxmike]

Suggest to the sales lady that you'll wait until spring, and make a much lower offer then because it still hasn't sold!

Once she tells the owner that, he'll probably give it some extra thought and might even accept a lower offer - it worked for me!

[Ex-Member]

 

For that money you should be able to get a newer, better appointed boat from a good boatbuilder.

Point me in the right direction!!!!!

[Ssscrudddy]

Dunno how much boats have gone up by, but 3 years ago I bought a 57' probably slightly slightly better specced (only real difference sprayfoam insulation) G&J Reeves boat with Beta Marine Kubota engine, built 2007, advertised for £48k, paid £40.5k. Tip top condition, 1300 Engine hours, fully equipped with all boaty stuff & tools etc (I chucked my own tools away because the ones that came with the boat were way better than anything I had).

All I had to do was turn up with my crap & cruise off into the sunset...

Edited October 3, 2016 by Ssscrudddy

[cuthound]

Point me in the right direction!!!!!

Is this boat in London? That could explain the premium.

 

Otherwise check out boats at these brokers:

 

http://www.abnb.co.uk

 

http://www.braunstonmarina.co.uk/find-a-boat

 

http://rugbyboats.co.uk

 

http://www.greathaywoodboatsales.co.uk

 

Google is your friend when looking for boats

[Athy]

You're on a hiding to nothing here as the owner is "retiring" and almost certainly does not need the money ie will wait as long as it takes for someone to fall in love with it and overlook any shortcomings...

 

 

Equally, it could be that the owner needs to make a quick sale to obtain ready money for whatever retirement plans he has.

 

 

For example, the "permanent" cross bed could be a novelty that soon wears off.

In what way is this a "novelty"? We've had a similar one for ten years and find it most convenient - especially the novelty of having a full 4'6" wide bed (with space on both sides) rather than the 4' model which is more common in in-line beds.

[Ex-Member]

Is this boat in London? That could explain the premium.

 

Otherwise check out boats at these brokers:

 

http://www.abnb.co.uk

 

http://www.braunstonmarina.co.uk/find-a-boat

 

http://rugbyboats.co.uk

 

http://www.greathaywoodboatsales.co.uk

 

Google is your friend when looking for boats

Hi no it is at ABNB at Crick. They say (along with other brokers) that boats are 'flying' out. One side of the adverts shows 'New Instruction' and the other 'Sale Agreed' We have spent a year saving up a further 10k because we wanted to buy a better boat than we were seeing this time last year but prices have definately gone up. The Aqualine we saw last year was on at £57 and sold, the guy has now put it back on the market 12 mths later at £65 just reduced to £60k. We went to Whilton yesterday but were extremely disappointed at the quality of some of the boats we had booked to see. They say they have hundreds for sale but a lot of them are sheds (in my opinion). The one I have specifically asked about this time just has a 'nice feel' to it, like when you buy a house, but I am not knowledgeable enough yet to know what is a good buy or not and, of course, everyone has their own opinion which I respect. Is anyone else looking to buy at the moment and having the same trouble?

[Athy]

Nannidiesel wouldn't be everyone's first choice of engine.

But they are the first choice for a lot of European hire fleets, which suggests that they are reliable. We have had first-hand experience of a Nanni 4.2 (though this appellation could apply to two or three similar models) and found it powerful and responsive. Nanni, based near Bordeaux, marinise various base engines including Toyota and John Deere, but this one is most likely a Kubota. Incidentally, the "4.2" doesn't mean it's 4.2 litres: it's either just under or just over 2 litres depending on the model.

[Athy]

the sales lady said he wants the asking prIce.

Everyone does. That's why it's called the asking price. ABNB are possibly less flexible on price than some other brokers, but this could be because they generally don't price boats over-optimistically in the first place.

 

That said, this one does look on the pricy side. perhaps its excellent condition is a factor? For me, the rather bare saloon would be a minus point, as I'd much rather have fitted furniture, but that's a matter of personal taste. Given the amount of space which this feature leaves in the saloon, it is perhaps also a pity that the stove is right by the front door, when it could have been installed in a more central position which would spread heat more evenly through the boat - though you'd have central heating as a back-up.

 

Why is the lack of a cratch cover a disadvantage? I can see that for shorter liveaboards (boats, that is, not people) they can offer valuable extra storage space. But this boat already has a spacious interior, and when you're out boating their main feature is to get in the bloody way.

[David Schweizer]

Everyone does. That's why it's called the asking price. ABNB are possibly less flexible on price than some other brokers, but this could be because they generally don't price boats over-optimistically in the first place.

 

That said, this one does look on the pricy side. perhaps its excellent condition is a factor? For me, the rather bare saloon would be a minus point, as I'd much rather have fitted furniture, but that's a matter of personal taste. Given the amount of space which this feature leaves in the saloon, it is perhaps also a pity that the stove is right by the front door, when it could have been installed in a more central position which would spread heat more evenly through the boat - though you'd have central heating as a back-up.

 

Why is the lack of a cratch cover a disadvantage? I can see that for shorter liveaboards (boats, that is, not people) they can offer valuable extra storage space. But this boat already has a spacious interior, and when you're out boating their main feature is to get in the bloody way.

 

That is a very odd comment Mike, We had to have a cratch cover on Helvetia because the well deck was at the water level, and the well had no scupopers. However, we never found that it got in the xxxx way. When cruising in good weather it was rolled up, and in wet weather it kept the front well nice and dry :-

 

 

Back to the comments about the OP's question. The boat may be a tad over priced, and yes it is a bit bland inside, but good boats are fetching good money at the moment and ABNB have a reputatioon for getting the price about right.

 

We recently sold Helvetia (above) which was a 34 year old 52 ft boat for something very close to the asking price through Braunston Marina. And that was despite several people suggesting it was too old, not suitable as a liveaboard, and seriously overpriced.

Edited October 3, 2016 by David Schweizer

[Athy]

No, David, it's not an odd comment. It's a comment which reflects my personal view. If a cratch worked for you on 'Helvetia', then all well and good. But I would never want a boat which had one, because, IN MY OPINION, it would get in the bloody way, an opinion reinforced by looking at the photo which you have provided.

 

It belongs in the pump out/ cassette, trad/ cruiser category, in that different people have different entrenched views about the subject. We would certainly find a cratch very restrictive.

[dmr]

It was quite about 10 years ago that we had any dealings with ABNB but at that time it appeared that they would be reluctant to take on a boat if they thought it was significantly overpriced.

 

.............Dave

[Athy]

It was quite about 10 years ago that we had any dealings with ABNB but at that time it appeared that they would be reluctant to take on a boat if they thought it was significantly overpriced.

 

.............Dave

When they sold our previous boat 'Batto', it was they, not us, who suggested the asking price. A few years previously, Notts Castle Marina did like wise with our first boat 'Octavia'. Is this not the normal procedure?

[Sea Dog]

A pretty negative bunch of responses so far - and that's good, because it removes your rose coloured spectacles and let's you see the potential warts! However, let me offer you a few counterpoints to help keep you on an even keel.

 

It matters very little what the original purchaser paid for the boat, other than in relative terms against new boats at that time as an indication of where it sat in the market perhaps. Who knows, it may have been the deal of the century! Recessed side panels are an unusual feature in budget builds.

 

What's important with the purchase price now is whether it represents good value for the boat as she is today and whether any 'extra' you pay gets you your ideal boat. Ideal boats are few and far between - as I expect you're learning! Sometimes its worth paying a little more to get what you want than getting a bargain on something else that won't be so pleasant to live with.

 

Don't be put off by personal spec preferences as opposed to genuine design or layout issues. For example: a cross bed has advantages and disadvantages, as do other bed layouts, but would be many people's first choice; an extra wide slide brings ease of access and they all let rain in when they're open! To me, both are personal preferences.

 

The inverter may 'only' be 2kw, but it appears to have coped with such extras as a washing machine and is a Victron, one of the best. The lack of a bow thruster will be seen as a positive by many!

 

The Nanni engine is based on a Kubota unit, and is therefore much the same as the Beta 43 which is a well respected unit. Research further before accepting that its not up to stuff. Similarly the Centraflex coupling: the Beta units are often supplied with an R&D coupling with the Centraflex offered as an upgrade. I'm not convinced that it is a poor choice or should put you off.

 

There's no denying that it does appear to be a high end price for its age but, if the photos and (respected broker) ABNB's description are anything to go by, she's been well looked after and that is a definite plus. It's easy to buy a cheaper boat that's been used with little sympathy and has none of the provenance this one clearly has.

 

You've seen 20 boats in 2 days and this one stood out. That says quite a lot and I suspect that you'd buy it if you thought you were getting the right deal. This is where you have to decide what premium you are prepared to pay for whatever added value you think this boat has.

 

Best wishes and good luck!

[Ex-Member]

A pretty negative bunch of responses so far - and that's good, because it removes your rose coloured spectacles and let's you see the potential warts! However, let me offer you a few counterpoints to help keep you on an even keel.

 

It matters very little what the original purchaser paid for the boat, other than in relative terms against new boats at that time as an indication of where it sat in the market perhaps. Who knows, it may have been the deal of the century! Recessed side panels are an unusual feature in budget builds.

 

What's important with the purchase price now is whether it represents good value for the boat as she is today and whether any 'extra' you pay gets you your ideal boat. Ideal boats are few and far between - as I expect you're learning! Sometimes its worth paying a little more to get what you want than getting a bargain on something else that won't be so pleasant to live with.

 

Don't be put off by personal spec preferences as opposed to genuine design or layout issues. For example: a cross bed has advantages and disadvantages, as do other bed layouts, but would be many people's first choice; an extra wide slide brings ease of access and they all let rain in when they're open! To me, both are personal preferences.

 

The inverter may 'only' be 2kw, but it appears to have coped with such extras as a washing machine and is a Victron, one of the best. The lack of a bow thruster will be seen as a positive by many!

 

The Nanni engine is based on a Kubota unit, and is therefore much the same as the Beta 43 which is a well respected unit. Research further before accepting that its not up to stuff. Similarly the Centraflex coupling: the Beta units are often supplied with an R&D coupling with the Centraflex offered as an upgrade. I'm not convinced that it is a poor choice or should put you off.

 

There's no denying that it does appear to be a high end price for its age but, if the photos and (respected broker) ABNB's description are anything to go by, she's been well looked after and that is a definite plus. It's easy to buy a cheaper boat that's been used with little sympathy and has none of the provenance this one clearly has.

 

You've seen 20 boats in 2 days and this one stood out. That says quite a lot and I suspect that you'd buy it if you thought you were getting the right deal. This is where you have to decide what premium you are prepared to pay for whatever added value you think this boat has.

 

Best wishes and good luck!

Thanks for a comprehinsve reply and very much in line with our own thoughts. We actually wanted a cross over bed and a cratch cover is not important (they tend to get used for storage anyway) and this one has a special table (and padded seat covers not shown) so it is more likely to get used as an extension of the saloon. When we first viewed it we were put off by the green carpet but on closer examination it is all in immaculate condition for it's age and clean (and not just for selling, I think that is the way they have looked after it) All the main wood is American light oak and has a feeling of quality and solidness, a bit like Ercol furniture (which we have). It can be used straight away and modified if necessary as we go along. I have never seen or heard of a boat with such a comprehensive written history/documents etc.

 

One further question: It only quotes having one alternator, is this sufficient as most boats seem to have two, but it also has a Victron 120A charger although that is only operational when connected to a landline.

[David Schweizer]

No, David, it's not an odd comment. It's a comment which reflects my personal view. If a cratch worked for you on 'Helvetia', then all well and good. But I would never want a boat which had one, because, IN MY OPINION, it would get in the bloody way, an opinion reinforced by looking at the photo which you have provided.

 

It belongs in the pump out/ cassette, trad/ cruiser category, in that different people have different entrenched views about the subject. We would certainly find a cratch very restrictive.

 

Did you ever come onto our boat Mike, The cratch cover would only "get in the way" if you leaned forward at 45 degrees when stepping down onto the side benches, the floor was then something like 20inches lower, you could then stand upright under the plank without hitting your head on the top plank. Of course I realise that on some boats the well deck is only about 4feet below the cabin roof, and that would make access difficult.

[Athy]

 

 

One further question: It only quotes having one alternator, is this sufficient as most boats seem to have two.

Our boats can't have been "most boats" then. 'Trojan' has one alternator, as did our previous boat. Are you sure that twin alternators are more common?

 

Did you ever come onto our boat Mike, The cratch cover would only "get in the way" if you leaned forward at 45 degrees when stepping down onto the side benches, the floor was then something like 20inches lower, you could then stand upright under the plank without hitting your head on the top plank. Of course I realise that on some boats the well deck is only about 4feet below the cabin roof, and that would make access difficult.

No, I only went past it, never came aboard.

When we're cruising, the non-driver usually sits on a cushion on the (shallow) well-deck, if it's Mrs. Athy. If it's me, I generally stand on the well deck. We both tend to look forwards while we're travelling. In her case, all she would see would be your deck-board, in my case I couldn't stand upright because of the cratch, and couldn't see forwards without leaning sideways. So its presence would be an encumbrance for both of us, in different ways.