DC Thermal 12 Volt Ducted Heater ???

[charlie-uk]

Hi all,

 

What do you think of this heating system? I'm very interested in buying one for my refit.

 

SD12-4000/4 DC THERMAL12 VOLT 4 DUCTED HEATER 40 AMPS 480 WATTS 8016 BTU’s

 

http://ebay.eu/1tdWjdr

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

Hi all,

 

What do you think of this heating system? I'm very interested in buying one for my refit.

 

SD12-4000/4 DC THERMAL12 VOLT 4 DUCTED HEATER 40 AMPS 480 WATTS 8016 BTU’s

 

http://ebay.eu/1tdWjdr

 

 

 

OK - its Winter time and it is a bit chilly all day.

 

Where are you going to get 480Ah (12hours) from, and maybe more to the point how are you going to put it back in your batteries ?

 

You will need an absolute minimum of 1000Ah battery bank, and you will probably need to run your engine for 12 hours to replace it (assuming 70amp alternator at 50%)

 

Why not just run the engine anyway - or better still run a small diesel heater such as an 'blown air' eberspacher - or 'water' eberspacher to heat radiators and provide hot water for showers etc.

[Nickhlx]

I think most people would think it is not the optimum solution (!)

 

The reason being that you would need a massive capacity battery bank if not running from shore power, or an engine on (genny) and the associated noise. If running from batteries ( expensive bank) it would take many hours each day following use to restore the charge into the battery bank. Even the diesel ones are noisy but at least they only sip electrical power..

 

These are the main reasons solid fuel stoves are widely used ( cost / silence/ not reliant on expensive batteries / shorepower or engines to re-charge)

 

Nick

[PaulG]

I think that, by the time you have factored in the cost of the batteries (£600.00 or so minimum?, and will need replacing every few years) and the fact that the supplier is in the States, in a different time zone, so not likely to be able to respond quickly if you have a problem, you'll see that some of the alternatives discussed above would be much better.

[charlie-uk]

Ah damn it, another idea blow away by knowledge, logic and experience.

Edited June 7, 2016 by charlie-uk

[WotEver]

To quote Gibbo, "Anyone who uses electricity to generate heat is mad".

 

Tony

[NMEA]

To quote Gibbo, "Anyone who uses electricity to generate heat is mad".

 

Tony

Sweeping, generalising and misleading really as low voltage AC from a decent shore supply is the cheapest, cleanest and quietest way to get heat (mains gas apart) That said unless you have a decent shore supply that you are not being overcharged for it is entirely impractical for an on board application. I have several systems in use using water heat recovery and low voltage AC and they are the most economical systems to run I know of. Again, entirely impractical whilst cruising but brilliant nonetheless. That's always the problem with trying to consider a "one size fits all" What is graet for one type of usage is not so good with another and vice versa, each usage pattern and budget needs to be considered as an individual project. Heating from Extra low voltage DC is however, rarely practical for generating heat.

Edited June 7, 2016 by NMEA

[PaulG]

To quote Gibbo, "Anyone who uses electricity to generate heat is mad".

 

Tony

Unless it's 240V mains off the Grid, of course...

[WotEver]

Unless it's 240V mains off the Grid, of course...

 

Well yes - he was referring to boat systems.

 

Tony

[Nickhlx]

"low voltage AC from a decent shore supply is the cheapest"

 

 

With A.C. power from a shore supply at 13 to 15p + per kWh, and "home heating oil" (Kerosene) and red diesel for heating (if not bought on the canalside) at around 3p per kWh, maybe some would disagree...

 

Nick

[Paul C]

So if its a cold winter's day, a fairly long boat, and one fan heater doesn't do it, can you plug a second fan heater in, if you're on shoreline? Or a fan heater + immersion heater?

[Nickhlx]

In our marina you can't even plug in one fan heater and draw more than about one kW, as the trips are only 6 amp - only good for lights / charging really. Even the power sockets at the fuel pumps / pump-out can only supply 16 amps which is about 3 kW assuming 230 V

 

Mains power in practice is only practical for low level background heating on boats... (IMHO) - Convenient, but I find quite expensive...

 

Nick

[MtB]

Hi all,

 

What do you think of this heating system? I'm very interested in buying one for my refit.

 

SD12-4000/4 DC THERMAL12 VOLT 4 DUCTED HEATER 40 AMPS 480 WATTS 8016 BTU’s

 

http://ebay.eu/1tdWjdr

 

 

 

 

I think I've suggested to you before, that attempting to re-invent the wheel with your fit out is a broadly futile excercise. Thousands of boaters before you have tried out all the options and a concensus about how to heat a narrowboat exists (solid fuel) because it really IS the best way by a long chalk.

 

Open minded thinking is certainly necessary as a boater but equally, bear in mind that large numbers of people equally open minded have usually settled on what turns out to be the conventional way of doing <whatever> in the light of decades of experimentation and experience.

 

So if you come up with a bright idea of, say, electrically heating your boat, you first thought to yourself should be "If this is a good idea, how come not everyone already does it?".

[charlie-uk]

I think I've suggested to you before, that attempting to re-invent the wheel with your fit out is a broadly futile excercise. Thousands of boaters before you have tried out all the options and a concensus about how to heat a narrowboat exists (solid fuel) because it really IS the best way by a long chalk.

 

Open minded thinking is certainly necessary as a boater but equally, bear in mind that large numbers of people equally open minded have usually settled on what turns out to be the conventional way of doing <whatever> in the light of decades of experimentation and experience.

 

So if you come up with a bright idea of, say, electrically heating your boat, you first thought to yourself should be "If this is a good idea, how come not everyone already does it?".

 

I agree with the fact that a present solid fuel is the best option, but totally disagree with rest.

 

I don't want to get into a debate so I will say simply, I am sure there are many interesting products yet to be discovered by the narrowboat community. If I could afford lithium batteries then this product would be very suitable. With the developments in batteries by Tesla and advancements in the cost-effective production of graphene, we many see soon narrowboat completely powered by batteries.

Edited June 13, 2016 by charlie-uk

[David Mack]

With the developments in batteries by Tesla and advancements in the cost-effective production of graphene, we many see soon narrowboat completely powered by batteries.

You can already have a narrowboat completely powered by batteries. That isn't difficult. The problem is how do you recharge those batteries? Until small nuclear reactors become a practical solution you are more or less restricted to fossils fuels, solar or long periods plugged into mains electricity.

[MtB]

 

I agree with the fact that a present solid fuel is the best option, but totally disagree with rest.

 

I don't want to get into a debate so I will say simply, I am sure there are many interesting products yet to be discovered by the narrowboat community. If I could afford lithium batteries then this product would be very suitable. With the developments in batteries by Tesla and advancements in the cost-effective production of graphene, we many see soon narrowboat completely powered by batteries.

 

 

Please don't belittle the narrowboat community. How patronising to suggest we have yet to discover products like lithium batteries.

 

New technology is tracked very closely by many here and often discussed in depth on here. Super capacitors are a good example. The fact that they are not available as finished and tested products on the market tells us there are problems for which answers have yet to be found, not that the narrowboat community has yet to discover the technology.

 

But your use of the word 'product' suggests you think there are lots of things actually in production now we haven't discovered. This seems unlikely to me.

 

But I appreciate you don't want to get into a debate, so I'll leave it at that.

[Paul C]

Cost-benefit ratio

[David Mack]

You can already have a narrowboat completely powered by batteries. That isn't difficult. The problem is how do you recharge those batteries? Until small nuclear reactors become a practical solution you are more or less restricted to fossils fuels, solar or long periods plugged into mains electricity.

And just to add that you only have to look at the number of threads on here about folk who have knackered their sevice batteries through insufficient charging to get an idea of how big a problem maintaing a set of batteries as your main/only source of propulsion energy would be.

[magnetman]

..... Until small nuclear reactors become a practical solution...

Is there a waiting list for these? I want one

[charlie-uk]

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFyY7_hc-14

Edited June 13, 2016 by charlie-uk

[GUMPY]

Isnt the power source of the eco fan a thermoelectric generator............

[Nickhlx]

I looked into thermoelectric generation some years ago and discounted it for our needs as it was simply too inefficient and expensive compared to other technologies, to produce more than a few watts. The TEGs would have to be massively more efficient to make them viable commercially for anything other than "special needs".. - and yes the ecofan uses a TEG cell but its power is tiny...

 

With oil currently being talked about being "significantly" phased out over the next decade or so, in favour of solar and new battery technologies (Aluminium !) and the huge rate of progress in those technologies (even "Lithium" is on the cards now to be surpassed in a few years with the developments now happening and they have hardly come into mainstream use like e.g. lead acid).

 

I am quite happy to use the least expensive, "commercially available now" technologies, i.e. diesel / kerosene / propane and solar panels which have plummetted in price in the last 2 years and continue to do so...

 

I also heard from "one in the industry" that grid electricity is set to be almost free, worldwide, by 2030... which will no doubt upset the oil producing countries even more... which with the new battery technologies to store it is certainly going to change the world...

Edited June 13, 2016 by Nickhlx

[I Spartacus]

Charlie I am still at the stage of designing my boat, and I am looking at designing it to use as little electric as possible

what ever is used, the equipment needs to be as efficient as possible,I would still use solar to help to charge the batteries. As has been

mentioned on here. The last thing I would wan't to do is increase my electrical requirement unless I was able to make an income

from the power that would be needed to make this.

[Chewbacka]

................................I also heard from "one in the industry" that grid electricity is set to be almost free, worldwide, by 2030... ..................

Many, many years ago it was said that with the arrival of nuclear power, electricity would no longer be metered and you would pay a small standing charge the same as water. Fifty years on and not only is electricity anything but free, but water is metered as well.

They also said that the sea had an infinite capacity to produce fish and unlimited capacity to accept industrial pollution and that there were canals on Mars.

 

Experts are not as good as science fiction writers for future predictions.

[Arthur Brown]

Obviously it's a great idea if you have a 5KW wind turbine at the top of the hill on your plot and maybe a hydro plant in the stream, but if you have to burn diesel to make electricity (at about 10% efficiency!) then burning solid fuel, burning oil or using mains as fuels would be much cheaper easier and more convenient.