How does this rank?

[DrBurkstrom]

I haven't read the thread in detail but would be interested to hear how you get on with it.

 

I don't think electric propulsion for canal boats (other than small ones with regular electric hookup) is a valid option at the moment. Would be nice if it was but taking everything into account (not just silence ) I just don't fancy it.

 

I like electric boats. I have an electric kayak and electric dinghy and an electric day boat but both my canal barges are -currently- powered by diesel engines.

 

If it becomes sensible (financially and reliability-wise) then I may consider electric as it is definitely a Good Thing.

 

 

For the record I think you will end up putting a diesel engine in with a gearbox and a shaft connected to a propeller.

 

It would not be the first time.

 

 

I already am :-) The system is a standard Beta 43 connected directly to the prop via a standard gearbox. The electric motor is an addition connected to the shaft by a belt. So when you've got the electric for it, you have the engine off and in neutral and the motor turns the prop. When you haven't, the engine turns the prop just like normal, but it's got an extra generator connected.

 

Hopefully that's a nice summary and if you want more details you can read the whole thread, which I admit we've made a bit long! I think it's the best of both worlds and while more expensive initially, I'm hoping it'll prove itself well. I'll follow standard procedure and start a thread in the builds section and / or a separate blog as things progress.

[magnetman]

Sorry I didn't read all of the thread !

 

Anyway good luck with it all.

[adam1uk]

I'm surprised you're not also investigating lithium batteries; the Victron pack has been fitted on the past two winning boats at the Crick show. From the accounts of the owners, their performance is little short of amazing -- they can be discharged to virtually nothing, maintain their voltage right up to the last minute, and charge incredibly quickly. Unfortunately they're also very expensive, and require some other kit to manage them, but they might actually allow you to make other savings.

[Chewbacka]

I'm surprised you're not also investigating lithium batteries; the Victron pack has been fitted on the past two winning boats at the Crick show. From the accounts of the owners, their performance is little short of amazing -- they can be discharged to virtually nothing, maintain their voltage right up to the last minute, and charge incredibly quickly. Unfortunately they're also very expensive, and require some other kit to manage them, but they might actually allow you to make other savings.

and lithium batteries will heat your boat in winter when they self combust as laptops and Airbus has found!!!!!!!!

[fergyguy]

From my original post it's becoming very clear there is two camps of thought in reply to my post. ...those who like things to be kept simple and prefer time tested reliable well used technology and the other camp who are grasping new technology with both hands and who are looking to embark on a new adventure of boating with this.if history has taught us one thing is new technology is often slow taking off comes with a huge price tag and by virtue of being in its infancy can be full of issues.i think it must have been the same when they unveiled the first steam engines but as with all new technology it gets better with development and the end products get cheaper and better given time.

[Stedman II]

I'm surprised you're not also investigating lithium batteries; the Victron pack has been fitted on the past two winning boats at the Crick show. From the accounts of the owners, their performance is little short of amazing -- they can be discharged to virtually nothing, maintain their voltage right up to the last minute, and charge incredibly quickly. Unfortunately they're also very expensive, and require some other kit to manage them, but they might actually allow you to make other savings.

I asked the question about Lithium Ion batteries at Crick. At the moment they are too expensive to make the hybrid system viable,

[matty40s]

i was stuck behind a very slow Springer going through Weedon last week,

Kathy had to keep taking the engine out of gear to stay back. when it got to the stretch past Concaform, he didnt go any faster, Kathy didn't know his intensions a he didn't turm round.

I was in the shower!!

Got to the end of the LTM's and boats, he was still wandering around at the same speed, I took the tiller and when the winding hole came near, and he was wandering in...maybe to turn, who knows, he never looked back, I decided to go past.

When I was halfway past, he turned to acknowledge that he could see me, and the returned to his LARGE cigarette.

 

 

Apparenty this is a Springer powered by 3x250W solar panels and an electric motor - so no doubt he could hear Old Friends behind and either just decided to ignore,, or was so stoned, it didn't matter.

[DrBurkstrom]

I'm surprised you're not also investigating lithium batteries; the Victron pack has been fitted on the past two winning boats at the Crick show. From the accounts of the owners, their performance is little short of amazing -- they can be discharged to virtually nothing, maintain their voltage right up to the last minute, and charge incredibly quickly. Unfortunately they're also very expensive, and require some other kit to manage them, but they might actually allow you to make other savings.

 

I asked about them at Crick like Stedman II, clearly not the right people as no-one told me they'd been used on winning boats! I love the idea of lithium batteries and they are amazing. As a leisure battery upgrade in a more "conventional" boat I'd be fascinated to hear how people get on. As you say though, they're very expensive at the moment and require complex management hardware tuned to the specific bank of cells. For these purposes, with the higher capacity needed, the advantages don't justify the cost YET. Especially since weight isn't exactly the problem it is for cars - in fact that would probably be the economic way to do it, if you can find a nearly new 30kWh battery from a Nissan Leaf that was scrapped for some other reason. You could then use it's management technology, the only drawback would be that you'd have to charge and discharge it at 100's of volts, rather than 48.

 

What I like about this system is how modular it is, it's possible the battery bank might need replacing after 10 years, by that time a 20-30kWh lithium based battery might well be the clear option, and I'll be able to take these out and drop that in (along with a load of extra ballast!)

 

From my original post it's becoming very clear there is two camps of thought in reply to my post. ...those who like things to be kept simple and prefer time tested reliable well used technology and the other camp who are grasping new technology with both hands and who are looking to embark on a new adventure of boating with this.if history has taught us one thing is new technology is often slow taking off comes with a huge price tag and by virtue of being in its infancy can be full of issues.i think it must have been the same when they unveiled the first steam engines but as with all new technology it gets better with development and the end products get cheaper and better given time.

 

Definitely, again with this system I think you get the best of both worlds and I'm hoping to find a nice balance between the two. Hope it's helped you in your decision.

[MtB]

 

 

I already am :-) The system is a standard Beta 43 connected directly to the prop via a standard gearbox. The electric motor is an addition connected to the shaft by a belt.

 

 

May I ask a basic maintenance question?

 

When the belt wears out or breaks and needs replacing, how you you get the new one onto the engine output shaft?

[Stewart Kirby]

This is a very interesting thread and I would certainly like to see how these designs pan out as I am sure there are applications which could be utilised on boats. It is a bit bleeding edge but if you have the money and the need for all this energy then give it a go. My only reservation is about how necessary it all is. My own experience from living on a narrowboat for six months of the year (Spring/summer/Autumn) is that things like TV, the Internet etc are not too important after a while. yes, you want to be able to use your mobile, maybe your laptop and mobile phone but these don't need a complicated system to maintain them. Solid fuel or diesel heating is good, gas cooking is good too and there's always the barbie or the pub. Mind you, I can't talk, I'm going over to the dark side and I've ordered a lumpy water boat, no canals here in Tenerife so it's a no brainer.

[DrBurkstrom]

 

 

May I ask a basic maintenance question?

 

When the belt wears out or breaks and needs replacing, how you you get the new one onto the engine output shaft?

 

That.. er.. is an excellent question actually, one I now feel a bit daft for not asking. It's not a massively new and unique system, there are several boats out that that have been using it for years and the builder I'm using has done several, so I'm sure there must be a simple answer but I don't know exactly what it is. My best guess is that the shaft is sectioned between the engine and stern gland, allowing you to take a section out and loop the new belt over it. I will get in touch and ask in the morning.

[David Mack]

I'm planning to mount the panels in such a way that they can be tilted to get a bit more in the winter,

No amount of tilting is going to compensate for the much lowe levels of solar radiation which falls on the UK in winter.

 

I'm planning to continuously cruise. or popping into a marina for a night or two to charge up.

So where are all these marinas where you can get a night or two's mooring with mains hookup for a reasonable charge?

My best guess is that the shaft is sectioned between the engine and stern gland, allowing you to take a section out and loop the new belt over it.

More likely is that you undo the gearbox coupling and slide the propshaft back through the sterntube enough to get the belt in.

[adam1uk]

So where are all these marinas where you can get a night or two's mooring with mains hookup for a reasonable charge?

 

Pretty much every marina in the country takes visiting boats, usually for around £10 a night.

[magnetman]

Split pulley? A bit like split rim wheels on cars. Maybe.

 

Another interesting battery option I stumbled across recently is Toyota PRIUS (Pretty Ridiculous Incomprehensible Useless Scrap) battery units. Apparently the early ones were NiMh cells and they are swapped out even if only one or a few cells have failed. People take them apart for electric bike projects etc.

 

Only thing is they are rather high voltage and quite a hazardous item to dismantle

[cuthound]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned fuel consumption.

 

Typically for a normally aspirated high speed diesel it wall vary by a factor of 3 between idle and full load, it will also vary with engine speed.

 

So from my own experience, a Beta 43 driving a 60 foot 16 tonne narrowboat typically uses around 1.5 lites per hour, cruising, varying from 1 litre per hour on tickover to around 3 litres per hour working hard on a river against the flow.

 

If the engine in a hybrid is used to charge a large battery bank whilst cruising, it will use fuel towards the upper end of the fuel consumption range.

 

So it seems to me you get the worst of both worlds with a hybrid, increased fuel consumption, and a hefty bill every 5-10 years (much more frequently if you abuse them) to replace the batteries.

[MtB]

More likely is that you undo the gearbox coupling and slide the propshaft back through the sterntube enough to get the belt in.

 

 

That won't be it. If it was, it would mean the generator can only be driven when drive is engaged.

 

The whole point of this system is the engine can charge the huge battery bank with the boat is stationary, Shirley.

[David Mack]

 

Pretty much every marina in the country takes visiting boats, usually for around £10 a night.

Do they? Few advertise it. And £10-20 just to charge your batteries is another cost to factor into the whole thing.

 

 

That won't be it. If it was, it would mean the generator can only be driven when drive is engaged.

 

The whole point of this system is the engine can charge the huge battery bank with the boat is stationary, Shirley.

In which case you need an altogether more complex transmission to allow:

-diesel engine drives prop in forward or reverse gear + motor/generator

-diesel engine drives motor/generator (no propulsion)

- motor/generator drives prop (diesel engine disconnected)

[Alan de Enfield]

Do they? Few advertise it. And £10-20 just to charge your batteries is another cost to factor into the whole thing.

 

Its £10 a night in our BWML marina (electricity included)

Its around £50 per night in York (£3.15 per metre per night electricity included)

Limehouse Marina is £30 up to 52 feet, £37 over 52 feet.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Alan de Enfield

[DrBurkstrom]

 

 

May I ask a basic maintenance question?

 

When the belt wears out or breaks and needs replacing, how you you get the new one onto the engine output shaft?

 

According to the chap who developed the system there's a soft coupling on the shaft you disconnect and slide back to fit a new belt. He also suggests having a new belt already around the shaft clipped to the stern gland out of the way so if needed you can slacken the the tensioner pulley, slide the new one over, re-apply the tension and you're good to go.

 

I can't imagine it happens a lot, but obviously the one time it does happen would be at the most inconvenient time possible.

[Stedman II]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned fuel consumption.

 

Typically for a normally aspirated high speed diesel it wall vary by a factor of 3 between idle and full load, it will also vary with engine speed.

 

So from my own experience, a Beta 43 driving a 60 foot 16 tonne narrowboat typically uses around 1.5 lites per hour, cruising, varying from 1 litre per hour on tickover to around 3 litres per hour working hard on a river against the flow.

 

If the engine in a hybrid is used to charge a large battery bank whilst cruising, it will use fuel towards the upper end of the fuel consumption range.

 

 

But: earlier in the thread it was mentioned that for every hour you cruise running the diesel engine, you get an hour's cruising back from the batteries. So for the first hour the consumption is higher than in a conventional system, but for the second hour it is zero. The question is, is the consumption in the first hour double that on a conventional system? I doubt it, as the engine is working more efficiently. For every litre of fuel burnt, more is converted to usable energy in the hybrid system.

[MtB]

 

According to the chap who developed the system there's a soft coupling on the shaft you disconnect and slide back to fit a new belt. He also suggests having a new belt already around the shaft clipped to the stern gland out of the way so if needed you can slacken the the tensioner pulley, slide the new one over, re-apply the tension and you're good to go.

 

I can't imagine it happens a lot, but obviously the one time it does happen would be at the most inconvenient time possible.

 

 

Does this mean the generator drive is from the output shaft of the transmission?

 

If so, how does one charge the batteries when stationary?

[DrBurkstrom]

 

 

Does this mean the generator drive is from the output shaft of the transmission?

 

If so, how does one charge the batteries when stationary?

 

As I understand it, yes. Which is why I'm assuming there may well be a secondary and separate clutch, if not as standard then at least as an option, but I'm waiting to hear back on that in detail. There's also a smaller, standard 3kW alternator fitted which will charge in neutral when stationary. The 5kW you get from the motor when cruising on diesel power is in addition to this.

[Paul C]

 

 

Does this mean the generator drive is from the output shaft of the transmission?

 

If so, how does one charge the batteries when stationary?

 

One doesn't (unless the prop spins!)

 

The way I see it, this is a deliberately simple hybrid system with a non-complex transmission - but in doing so, "misses a trick" in that the big gnerator can't be used to charge the batteries when stationary. In fact, it will probably be spinning at lower-than-optimal most of the time, when driving a canal boat on canals. Maybe a design flaw there? Would depend on the gearing/pulleys etc

 

A reasonable transmission system wouldn't be that difficult to make, using a (car) differential and trans brakes on the various shafts you didn't want to turn but would obviously be a step up in complexity to the simple belt.

 

And an optimal transmission might include a planetary gear system similar to found in auto transmissions, but obviously then its into custom gears, custom casing etc. Google "hybrid synergy drive" (the brand name of Toyota's system) for ideas.

[magnetman]

This might not be the unit the op was talking about but it does show the electric drive is between gearbox and prop.

 

I guess that way you miss out on the gearbox losses when operating on electric propulsion.

http://www.hybrid-marine.co.uk/

[MtB]

Ah I see.

 

I had somehow aquired the impression the drive belt drew power from a shaft connecting the engine to the gearbox.

 

I'm sure its been described that way at least once in this thread. But I can't find an example!