Opinions Please - Fridges 3-Way v 12v In Historic Boat

[cheshire~rose]

Can the wonderful people of this forum help us to make a decision.

 

We need to choose a fridge for the fit out of Python.

 

At one point a 3-way fridge was suggested. The benefits of a 3-way fridge would be that when at festivals, breasted or even rafted up with all the other historic boats we could run it on gas saving the drain on the batteries and consequently the need to run the air cooled Lister engine. Bearing in mind the engine in Python is aft, not in an engine room like most historic boats it means that the air vent is very likely to be right next to some poor buggers back cabin. Wanting to use a bit of foresight to try and ensure we can be considerate boaters I feel anything that can avoid us having to run the engine purely for generating electricity is a good thing, it is also much better not to run the Lister without any load so, good for the engine too!

 

Personally for me the negative side of a 3-way fridge is the need to have an outside vent for it. I do not think the addition of an external vent is going to sit well or be in keeping with "the look" of a historic boat. Many would argue that Python does not "look" like most historic boats anyway and it is true, she is different but I still want to avoid adding anything that will detract from the overall feel of her age. For example it was suggested that we just fit a 12v fridge but add a solar panel to power it. Well, while I have no problem at all with fitting a solar panel to our own boat it is not something "in keeping" with a historic boat and so Python will not be having one and I fear that running a 12v fridge will simply kill the leisure batteries in no time and that is an expense we can do without.

 

Does anyone else know of (or own) a historic boat with a 3-way fridge on board and how have they dealt with the air vent situation? (I know, before anyone mentions it there is little room to fit one in a back cabin but I know many have a kitchenette in the bow.)

 

The other thing point that has been raised by one of the crew is they worry about sleeping on a boat with a gas appliance running. While I understand that concern we will have a gas safety certificate issued annually for the boat once it is fitted out which should ensure it is safe and complies with regulations. Coming from a background of caravanning I am very used to 3 way fridges and have always found them to be fine. I also have experience of using one on a boat some years back and that too was fine.

 

I would be interested to hear all points for and against either 3-way or 12v to help us make the right decision for the fit out.

 

Thanks

 

 

[Keith M]

Another down side when moored with other boats is that the external vent could become damage or blocked.

 

I have not installed a gas fridge in a very long time

 

Also mostly 230-volt AC fridges these days

 

Keith

[rgriffiths]

I have had a gas fridge for a long time but it died last summer. I have replaced it with a 12v one which I was worried would kill the batteries. I have been very pleasantly surprised at how much battery it actually uses. I do have a solar panel which helps.

 

Before buying it I did the maths and it appeared that they are a massive drain. however (and I am no expert) it also seems that this based on the fridge working all the time. A new electric fridge is pretty efficient, well insulated and therefore if you do not have it on full blast and do not keep putting lots of of hot things in to cool down it is not actually working for much of the time . That is my experience anyway.

Edited April 2, 2016 by rgriffiths

[alan_fincher]

Yes,

 

We have a historic boat ("Flamingo") that uses a Dometic 3 way fridge.

 

This is run on LPG when away from its home mooring.

 

The standard BSS requirements for leisure boats do not require such a fridge to have an external flue - it is perfectly acceptable for it to vent into the cabin space, and that is how ours operates.

 

This was an entirely standard arrangement on just about all hire boats for many decades, so I can't say I think that there are any serious risks associated with such an arrangement.

 

I don't know if Python has to comply to different regulationss from our "leisure" boat though - if it wre treated in the same way as a hire boat, maybe such an arrangement is not compliant with that?

It is clearly important that the fridge is properly maintained, and that whenever run on LPG, you check that the flame is burning blue, with no orange tips.

I consider historic boat ownership can produce far greater risks than those of an LPG fridge. Specifically if you have a "Grand Union" type boat that has not been modified, there is only one way out of the back cabin in event of a fire, and that involves getting from the bed-hole past the range, which would probably be the source of such a fire. (I realise Python does not have this risk, though).

[Guest]

Yes,

 

We have a historic boat ("Flamingo") that uses a Dometic 3 way fridge.

 

This is run on LPG when away from its home mooring.

 

The standard BSS requirements for leisure boats do not require such a fridge to have an external flue - it is perfectly acceptable for it to vent into the cabin space, and that is how ours operates.

 

This was an entirely standard arrangement on just about all hire boats for many decades, so I can't say I think that there are any serious risks associated with such an arrangement.

 

I don't know if Python has to comply to different regulationss from our "leisure" boat though - if it wre treated in the same way as a hire boat, maybe such an arrangement is not compliant with that?

It is clearly important that the fridge is properly maintained, and that whenever run on LPG, you check that the flame is burning blue, with no orange tips.

I consider historic boat ownership can produce far greater risks than those of an LPG fridge. Specifically if you have a "Grand Union" type boat that has not been modified, there is only one way out of the back cabin in event of a fire, and that involves getting from the bed-hole past the range, which would probably be the source of such a fire. (I realise Python does not have this risk, though).

I was surprised to discover the none requirement for an external vent on a boat in a previous discussion about this on here, given caravans in which 3 way fridges are pretty std. nowadays do have to be vented.

 

I believe the rationale comes from the fact it is such a small burner and the gasses can easily dissipate within a boat??. As you say though it makes it doubly important to check the combustion is 'clean' though.

[FadeToScarlet]

There was a gas fridge on Willow. The vent was in the cabin top, so it was invisible and couldn't get blocked.

 

We now have a 12v fridge and flat solar panels to power it- the rationale being, there's a dirty great cabin conversion over the hold, so it doesn't really matter what's on the cabin top of it.

 

How much of Python's current appearance is like it was when working as a maintenance boat? Was it clothed up like now, or open? If the clothed up bit of hold isn't as it was, you might as well hang a solar panel or two over the non towpath side.

[OldGoat]

Trying to look at a 3-way fridge in a disinterested fashion, the main point that would put me off is that the 12V drain is quite high (I have no facts to support this) but the whole device is a heat engine and is very inefficient of energy used. A compressor fridge at least has a mechanical advantage - sorry can't explain it better.

You seem to be happy for it to be inefficient when running on batteries.

 

I'm trying to say - what about a more modern A++ electric fridge? It would last longer on a given battery capacity than the 3-way - so you'd need to charge up the batteries less often.

It'll do a better job - recovery time - than the 3-way not only because the process is more efficient but modern insulation is so much better now.

Is it possible to get an adequate 3-way fridge nowadays?

[Guest]

Is it possible to get an adequate 3-way fridge nowadays?

I guess that depends on what you mean by adequate.

 

The three way Dometic fridge freezer we have in the caravan is better than the one we have at home.

 

I would have thought it poss. to fit a modern caravan fidge to a boat, or does somebody know different? You would need to sort the combustion venting.

 

They make smaller versions too.

 

They must draw a good lump on 12v though as they need to be connected to a car with the engine running in order to work on 12v.

[Iain_S]

Trying to look at a 3-way fridge in a disinterested fashion, the main point that would put me off is that the 12V drain is quite high (I have no facts to support this) but the whole device is a heat engine and is very inefficient of energy used. A compressor fridge at least has a mechanical advantage - sorry can't explain it better.

You seem to be happy for it to be inefficient when running on batteries

.(snip)

 

On 12V, usually a thermostat is not in circuit.The fridge therefore runs all the time. It doesn't become a freezer, though, as the heat from the back eventually makes its way back to the fridge faster than the fridge can get rid of it. (The same effect can can happen with any type of fridge with inadequate ventilation.)

[cheshire~rose]

 

 

The standard BSS requirements for leisure boats do not require such a fridge to have an external flue - it is perfectly acceptable for it to vent into the cabin space, and that is how ours operates.

 

 

Thank you, I had no idea. I will find out if we need to treat it differently as Python is not a leisure boat.

 

How much of Python's current appearance is like it was when working as a maintenance boat? Was it clothed up like now, or open? If the clothed up bit of hold isn't as it was, you might as well hang a solar panel or two over the non towpath side.

When she was working for BW she did not have cloths.

 

That could be an option but on her home mooring the offside is shaded by a hedge.

Trying to look at a 3-way fridge in a disinterested fashion, the main point that would put me off is that the 12V drain is quite high (I have no facts to support this) but the whole device is a heat engine and is very inefficient of energy used. A compressor fridge at least has a mechanical advantage - sorry can't explain it better.

You seem to be happy for it to be inefficient when running on batteries.

 

I'm trying to say - what about a more modern A++ electric fridge? It would last longer on a given battery capacity than the 3-way - so you'd need to charge up the batteries less often.

It'll do a better job - recovery time - than the 3-way not only because the process is more efficient but modern insulation is so much better now.

Is it possible to get an adequate 3-way fridge nowadays?

 

I do not think it very likely we would often use the 12v. There is no mains power at her mooring (and we would be unlikely to use the fridge at all there anyway) If we were out and about we would simply use gas then if we ever got somewhere to hook up to mains then we would use mains.

[FadeToScarlet]

When she was working for BW she did not have cloths.

 

That could be an option but on her home mooring the offside is shaded by a hedge.

Presumably the fridge wouldn't need to be on, on the mooring- as there's no one there? So the panel could be kept inside, and hung up and plugged in when out and about.

 

I'd be inclined to go for a gas fridge, just because running out of gas shouldn't be a problem- at the gatherings Python goes to, there's normally a fuel boat too!

Edited April 2, 2016 by FadeToScarlet

[OldGoat]

Iain_S, on 02 Apr 2016 - 6:43 PM, said:

 

On 12V, usually a thermostat is not in circuit.The fridge therefore runs all the time. It doesn't become a freezer, though, as the heat from the back eventually makes its way back to the fridge faster than the fridge can get rid of it. (The same effect can can happen with any type of fridge with inadequate ventilation.)

That's a much better description!

The wretched thing is on all the time, consuming power and is very inefficient of all resources.

There's a lot of energy in a bottle of gas and likewise the 240V domestic energy consumed is small when compared with whatever else is used in a domestic environment - but when you get to a boat......

 

Like many discomforts on boating 'camping', when we hired we had two boats fitted with these-inventions-of-the-devil and both were 'unsatisfactory'. They'd keep existing things cool, never made ice and any frozen foods quickly weren't....

 

So I'm biased.

 

I still think it's a poor solution. I guess folks use them because their gas cylinders last a bit and are easy (?) to replace.

[sueb]

Yes,

 

We have a historic boat ("Flamingo") that uses a Dometic 3 way fridge.

 

This is run on LPG when away from its home mooring.

 

The standard BSS requirements for leisure boats do not require such a fridge to have an external flue - it is perfectly acceptable for it to vent into the cabin space, and that is how ours operates.

 

This was an entirely standard arrangement on just about all hire boats for many decades, so I can't say I think that there are any serious risks associated with such an arrangement.

 

I don't know if Python has to comply to different regulationss from our "leisure" boat though - if it wre treated in the same way as a hire boat, maybe such an arrangement is not compliant with that?

 

It is clearly important that the fridge is properly maintained, and that whenever run on LPG, you check that the flame is burning blue, with no orange tips.

 

I consider historic boat ownership can produce far greater risks than those of an LPG fridge. Specifically if you have a "Grand Union" type boat that has not been modified, there is only one way out of the back cabin in event of a fire, and that involves getting from the bed-hole past the range, which would probably be the source of such a fire. (I realise Python does not have this risk, though).

 

I fully agree. We had a gas fridge for over 25yrs. It was excellant and no need to run it on electricity. We could go and leave the fridge on whilst away and the freezer section kept our food frozen. We had an air vent above the fridge in the roof but no other external venting.

 

[cheshire~rose]

Thanks folks,

 

Plenty of food for thought there.

[rgreg]

My motorhome has a Dometic 3 way fridge and it keeps everything very cool (including frozen) and is virtually silent. It doesn't seem to use a huge amount of gas (12v only works when travelling). I have often wondered why they were never the first choice for boats, and considered swapping my 240v on the boat for one as I have all three power supplies right in situ. Probably the two things that put me off are the venting for gas and the increased 12v consumption versus 12v only fridges.

[David Mack]

I don't think the makers of 3-way fridges recommend fitting them in boats, although that hasn't stopped lots of people doing so.

 

On Fulbourne our fridge only runs when the engine is going, so no battery issues, but it does mean it doesn't work if we are stationary for any length of time, such as at rallies and festivals. In practice that isn't a problem. Food will keep long enough in a cool place. Do you actually need a fridge on Python?

[furnessvale]

There was a gas fridge on Willow. The vent was in the cabin top, so it was invisible and couldn't get blocked.

 

 

How did that work?

 

I used to have a 3 way fridge which was good on gas but vented into the cabin. I was unhappy about this, partially for the potential for fumes (no problems experienced) but also the amount of heat being put into the cabin in summer.

 

I thought about external venting but was told that extending the manufacturers vent is a no-no. The alternative was raising the fridge to working top level to avoid cutting the hull.

 

The upshot was I bought a 12v fridge at a good price and I am very pleased at the low power use and much bigger freezer compartment.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[bigray]

I don't think the makers of 3-way fridges recommend fitting them in boats, although that hasn't stopped lots of people doing so.

 

On Fulbourne our fridge only runs when the engine is going, so no battery issues, but it does mean it doesn't work if we are stationary for any length of time, such as at rallies and festivals. In practice that isn't a problem. Food will keep long enough in a cool place. Do you actually need a fridge on Python?

 

The fridge is essential. Without the balanced diet of Bacon and Sausages (along with a few chips every now and then) the crew can't operate effectively!

[alan_fincher]

There was a gas fridge on Willow. The vent was in the cabin top, so it was invisible and couldn't get blocked.

 

What type of fridge?

 

I'm not aware of any Electrolux or Dometic one where you supposed to use anything other than a standard kit that it makes clear should not be modified.

The standard kit has a sloping pipe that has to vent to the side, and could not vent through a roof.

How did that work?

 

I used to have a 3 way fridge which was good on gas but vented into the cabin. I was unhappy about this, partially for the potential for fumes (no problems experienced) but also the amount of heat being put into the cabin in summer.

 

 

Given that they only burn a maximum of around 250 grams of gas per day, I don't think the heating effect from them is particularly large, but obviously the smaller the cabin, the more likely it is to have an impact.

[cheshire~rose]

 

The fridge is essential. Without the balanced diet of Bacon and Sausages (along with a few chips every now and then) the crew can't operate effectively!

 

Well yes, that too!

 

We are planning to use Python as a welfare boat for volunteers who are working on the canal, now admittedly this use is possibly more likely to happen in winter so we can keep the milk for hot drinks cold easily enough so maybe we don't need a fridge then.

 

Whether we need a fridge when at a festival depends on a number of things. It is good to have access to cold drinks on hot days (volunteers do not drink alcohol when "on duty" so a visit to the beer tent is not really a viable option) There is often very little opportunity to leave our "post" to visit a food stall to get food and so a ready supply of fresh food that can be quickly and easily prepared can be useful too.

 

In her previous life she had a 12v cool box which was always well used and had a habit of killing the batteries (as they do) We also like to be able to offer the crew an opportunity to fend for themselves when moving the boat as they do not get any expenses and not everyone can run to eating in the pub every night (assuming there is a mooring by a pub available) Obviously if they have been cruising then a 12v fridge would be fine but when the boat sits around for a few days at a festival the gas option would come into play.

[cereal tiller]

 

What type of fridge?

 

I'm not aware of any Electrolux or Dometic one where you supposed to use anything other than a standard kit that it makes clear should not be modified.

The standard kit has a sloping pipe that has to vent to the side, and could not vent through a roof.

 

 

Given that they only burn a maximum of around 250 grams of gas per day, I don't think the heating effect from them is particularly large, but obviously the smaller the cabin, the more likely it is to have an impact.

When 3 way Fridges are running on 12 or 230 volt they draw 100 Watts so the gas flame heat output cannot be too much more.

 

Cabin temperature rise would be negligible.

 

 

CT

[furnessvale]

 

 

 

Given that they only burn a maximum of around 250 grams of gas per day, I don't think the heating effect from them is particularly large, but obviously the smaller the cabin, the more likely it is to have an impact.

Yes, it was probably all in my mind but I could sit in the cabin on a hot day, put my hand over the vent, feeling the heat rising and thinking, I can do without this.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[FadeToScarlet]

 

What type of fridge?

 

I'm not aware of any Electrolux or Dometic one where you supposed to use anything other than a standard kit that it makes clear should not be modified.

The standard kit has a sloping pipe that has to vent to the side, and could not vent through a roof.

I'm assuming Electrolux as the vent is still there in the roof. The fridge itself was mounted on the work top, so as to be nearer the roof. Will ask SH when I see him next.

[cuthound]

Our first share boat had an Electrolux 3 way fridge. It was mounted under the worktop on a return (U shaped galley) and vented through a ceiling mounted cupboard to a mushroom vent on the roof.

 

Very economical to run, absolutely silent and never gave a moments trouble until it was 10 years old, when a quick turning upside down was required to remix the ammonia based refridgerant.

 

Edited to remove a predictive spelling induced K (UK shaped galley indeed).

Edited April 5, 2016 by cuthound

[Hairy Animal]

Have you considered something like this http://r.ebay.com/B59yT6? We've got a similar model for our historic boat (not a working narrow boat) and intend to run it from the 24V supply in the boat, but being moderately portable, we can take it home when we're not on the boat and cool it right down (well below freezing if necessary) on mains electricity at home with food in, then transport it to the boat already cold, using the batteries to keep it cold.