Nottingham to Leeds??

[Movin' on]

Hi all,

 

I am a seasoned inland waterways user BUT not familiar or particularly comfortable with wide or tidal waters.

 

We are heading north of Manchester for the first time this year and as part of that trip are contemplating cruising from Nottingham to Leeds in early May and are aware that the Cromwell to Keadby stretch can throw up some challenges.

 

My main question is given we have all the time in the world and want/intend to explore the Fossdyke and Chesterfield Canal if we simply start the cruise and when we get to the relevant locks/junctions seek advice from Lockkeepers is that good enough or MUST we plan more and accept other constraints on our activity.

 

Our very heavy old tug (57ft) has a DM2 in her - is this man enough for that which the tidal Trent could throw at us?

 

ALSO and very important we have 2 elderly dogs and are not that fit ourselves - are there any issue about getting dogs on shore?

 

If the general consensus is that the issues will outweigh the pleasure then we will simply go the other way to the L&L - its not a major concern its just that we would like to do the ring!

 

Thanks all.

[john6767]

First off welcome to the forum.

 

Not done that section yet, but if it were me I would be making certain I was well prepared.

 

For me that would start with life jackets for all crew (& dogs), an appropriate anchor (and chain/rope) for the weight of boat, the engine serviced, diesel checked etc. VHF would help, but is probably not essential.

 

I don't know if your engine is up to it, no doubt other will fill in the blanks.

[David Mack]

I have only done as far as West Stockwith, in a 70 footer with a National 2DM. We had no problems on the River at all. We overnighted on the pontoon at Torksey - easy access for elderly dogs and boaters. Unfortunately we did not have time to explore the Fossdyke & Witham, so that is for another trip.

 

At West Stockwith we took instructions from the lockkeeper, and although it felt a bit hairy heading straight for the wall as he directed, it was the right thing to do, and we entered the lock without touching.

 

The Chesterfield is just wonderful, if a little shallow, and its well worth pushing right on to the end at Norwood tunnel.

[mrsmelly]

Hi

 

B4 you actualy go Ring the loclies deffo at Cromwell and Keadby and ask them for their opinions of the best tides in the next couple of weeks or so. They are great if you talk to them in the correct manner and not as if you know all about it. Its a doddle of a trip from Cromwell to The Fossdyke and you can stop on floating pontoons downside of the lock to easily take the dog off, there is loads of it.

The trip then up to Keadby can be broken if you wish by a visit to the Chesterfield or stopping off on the floating pontoons at a couple of locations b4 Keadby.

Go on the right days and you will love it. PLeeeeese take a vhf radio its for your safety and log all the lockies numbers into your mobile. I have done it with lesser engines.

 

Tim

[Derek Porteous]

I would echo all of the above. As mobility is a consideration, both canine and humanoid, the Trent option is probably a better option than the Leeds Liverpool with the Wigan Flight and a zillion swing bridges. Plenty of good floating pontoons on the Fossdyke, A slight problem might be the depth (or lack of it) on the Chesterfield and perhaps weed although you will probably be early enough in the year for it not to be a problem. Entrance at West Stockwith and Keadby can be a bit tricky, but nothing to worry about if you round up and enter against the current.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Derek Porteous

[Wanderer Vagabond]

If you are travelling down the Trent I would strongly recommend a copy of the Boating Association River Trent (Tidal) map for about £10. A lot of it is reinforcing commonsense since the general rule (not exclusive rule) is that you take the bends on the river on the outside edge where the deepest channel is, but a few bits are contrary to that and it is helpful to know where they are. Coming down the Trent on a falling tide the last thing you want to do is run aground since you will have to sit there until the tide comes back.

 

We did it last year the other way from Keadby to Cromwell stopping off to go up the Chesterfield and down the Fossdyke Navigation and that was relatively easy since we reached each of the stopping off points pretty much on slack water so turning off the Trent was almost like turning off from a canal. I don't doubt that one poster will be on here to tell you that the best way is to punch into the tide for an hour so that you get to your destinations on slack water. I remain to be convinced of his argument however since a)narrow boats weren't really designed to 'punch' into a tide so progress will be very slow if not static for that hour and b ) not knowing how fast you are going to be able to go into the tide makes it almost impossible to know what time you will reach your destination so you could still end up trying to turn into West Stockwith and Keadby across the current which is what makes it a bit challenging.

 

It is a good trip however, good luck!

Edited March 15, 2016 by Wanderer Vagabond

[mrsmelly]

To the OP you could do worse than contact Tony Dunkley of this forum. I am a Trent boatmaster so know it well along most of its length but Tony has a great knowledge of said river. I have met him and some of his boats and he has forgotten more about the river and boating than 99 percent of other forum users.

Pm him for advice if unsure on any point.

 

Tim

[Movin' on]

Wow - and someone told me this was a sleepy forum!

 

Thanks for all the advice - so far so good - it is making me feel more confident about actually taking this on - my view is those who seem to post stress and related problems are those possibly with not enough time to take whatever comes in their stride and if needed be prepared (or able) wait.

 

I've been there as have most of us I'm sure but retirement should ease that pressure for us this time.

 

Given that we are committed to do the full "ring" is this the best way round?

 

Clearly if we went up the West coast and came back down the East coast the river conditions would be different but so would the time of year (back on this section of the Trent in July instead of May?)

 

Comments?

 

Thanks all so far.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Halsey

[mrsmelly]

Wow - and someone told me this was a sleepy forum!

 

Thanks for all the advice - so far so good - it is making me feel more confident about actually taking this on - my view is those who seem to post stress and related problems are those possibly with not enough time to take whatever comes in their stride and if needed be prepared (or able) wait.

 

I've been there as have most of us I'm sure but retirement should ease that pressure for us this time.

 

Given that we are committed to do the full "ring" is this the best way round?

 

Clearly if we went up the West coast and came back down the East coast the river conditions would be different but so would the time of year (back on this section of the Trent in July instead of May?)

 

Comments?

 

Thanks all so far.

 

You will have no different problems on the Trent wether you go Uphill or downhill. The only problems arise when it pees it down with rain. Just consider wether you want a spring tide or not there lies the difference.

 

Tim

[haggis]

On the Trent, before you get to the tidal bit at Cromwell, there are not that many places where it is easy to get a dog on and off, especially if they are elderly and unable to jump up onto the bank and then down onto the boat. The pontoons at Gunthorpe and Cromwell are good but in between, we tend to stop for a short time at pontoons at a lock and let the dogs off for a bit. Not all locks have convenient pontoons so it is a case of taking the opportunity when it presents itself. In Newark, there are pontoons but we have never managed to get space on them and we have had to lift the dogs on and off on both sides of the river.

Mind you, we haven't been on the trent for a few years so things might have changed.

 

haggis

[Wanderer Vagabond]

 

You will have no different problems on the Trent wether you go Uphill or downhill. The only problems arise when it pees it down with rain. Just consider wether you want a spring tide or not there lies the difference.

 

Tim

Ah, has anyone mentioned the Aegir

 

I'm not sure why you see no difference travelling uphill or downhill. When travelling 'uphill' on the incoming tide running aground isn't a likely event and even if it occurs isn't a major problem since the tide will then lift you off, coming 'downhill' on an ebbing tide however is a whole different proposition should you run aground, and the likelihood is greater.

[mrsmelly]

Ah, has anyone mentioned the Aegir

 

I'm not sure why you see no difference travelling uphill or downhill. When travelling 'uphill' on the incoming tide running aground isn't a likely event and even if it occurs isn't a major problem since the tide will then lift you off, coming 'downhill' on an ebbing tide however is a whole different proposition should you run aground, and the likelihood is greater.

 

Ahh the Aegir. I have some good fotos of some of them taken on different dates when waiting to lock out. Yes going aground going downhill could be a problem but not if advice is taken on when to traverse and more importantly keeping to channel. Its a fab river innit.

 

Tim

[colinwilks]

We have done the Trent in both directions, locking up at both West Stockwith and Torksey. I purchased John Lower's book "Narrow Boat on the Trent" which may still be available via Amazon (Richlow the publishers have stopped selling books direct I think). It is a good confidence boosting read and a good introduction to planning your departure time to fit the tides.

 

My experience of the lockies on the Trent is that they are unfailingly friendly and helpful, but I would suggest you speak to the lock at both your departure and destination points to establish the best time to leave. You may not get the same advice from both!

 

It is easy to get too near to the shallows on the inside of bends if you're tempted to cut the corners, the sudden lack of depth announcing itself very obviously by your wash.

 

The Chesterfield is beautiful and it's well worth going all the way up the flight at Shire Oaks, there's an ice cream shop half way up. It's difficult to get into the side on most of the Chesterfield, so you'll need to plan stops for the dogs in advance. A day or two tied up in the basin at West Stockwith is a pleasant place to watch the world go by. When we were there the pub had belly dancing on the Friday night.

 

The moorings above the lock at Keadby are fine, although there's not much in the way of pubs or shops.

[Wanderer Vagabond]

 

Ahh the Aegir. I have some good fotos of some of them taken on different dates when waiting to lock out. Yes going aground going downhill could be a problem but not if advice is taken on when to traverse and more importantly keeping to channel. Its a fab river innit.

 

Tim

Yup, I enjoyed it, despite having made a bit of a pigs ear getting around Turn Post Corner above Gainsborough . Concentrated on not hitting the sand bar but left it a bit late to turn and strimmed the trees on the bank for a short distance.

[TheBiscuits]

As mobility is a consideration, both canine and humanoid, the Trent option is probably a better option than the Leeds Liverpool with the Wigan Flight and a zillion swing bridges.

Why is Wigan flight a problem? Assisted passage via CRT every Tuesday in the season, keen volunteers and Wigan Flight Crew the rest of the time.

 

This myth does more harm to the Northern waterways than any other. Wigan flight is NOT a major issue, and help is available if you think you may struggle.

 

Now some of the swing bridges are harder work than I like, but if you can't work a swing bridge you might want to consider cruising with P&O rather than CRT.

 

::Spellink eddit

Edited March 15, 2016 by TheBiscuits

[Derek Porteous]

Why is Wigan flight a problem? Assisted passage via CRT every Tuesday in the season, keen volunteers and Wigan Flight Crew the rest of the time.

 

This myth does more harm to the Northern waterways than any other. Wigan flight is NOT a major issue, and help is available if you think you may struggle.

 

Now some of the swing bridges are harder work than I like, but if you can't work a swing bridge you might want to consider cruising with P&O rather than CRT.

 

::Spellink eddit

To be clear, I was only quoting the Wigan flight (and swing bridges) because the OP said they may have mobility problems. We have done the Wigan flight 20 or 30 times and always enjoyed it. It can, however, be hard work. Whilst I knew about the Wigan Flight Crew I was not aware that CRT was now offering assisted passage. Is this relatively new?

[Little Else]

I found the Wigan flight to be horrible when we did it in 2014. Broken paddle gear, gates that were heavy, rubbish, lack of water etc. Thought it was really badly maintained. I'm not asking for help, just want things to work.

[Tony Dunkley]

Hi all,

 

I am a seasoned inland waterways user BUT not familiar or particularly comfortable with wide or tidal waters.

 

We are heading north of Manchester for the first time this year and as part of that trip are contemplating cruising from Nottingham to Leeds in early May and are aware that the Cromwell to Keadby stretch can throw up some challenges.

 

My main question is given we have all the time in the world and want/intend to explore the Fossdyke and Chesterfield Canal if we simply start the cruise and when we get to the relevant locks/junctions seek advice from Lockkeepers is that good enough or MUST we plan more and accept other constraints on our activity.

 

Our very heavy old tug (57ft) has a DM2 in her - is this man enough for that which the tidal Trent could throw at us?

 

ALSO and very important we have 2 elderly dogs and are not that fit ourselves - are there any issue about getting dogs on shore?

 

If the general consensus is that the issues will outweigh the pleasure then we will simply go the other way to the L&L - its not a major concern its just that we would like to do the ring!

 

Thanks all.

 

Wow - and someone told me this was a sleepy forum!

 

Thanks for all the advice - so far so good - it is making me feel more confident about actually taking this on - my view is those who seem to post stress and related problems are those possibly with not enough time to take whatever comes in their stride and if needed be prepared (or able) wait.

 

I've been there as have most of us I'm sure but retirement should ease that pressure for us this time.

 

Given that we are committed to do the full "ring" is this the best way round?

 

Clearly if we went up the West coast and came back down the East coast the river conditions would be different but so would the time of year (back on this section of the Trent in July instead of May?)

 

Comments?

 

Thanks all so far.

 

With regard to your question about engine power, you have more than ample power with, what I assume is, a 2 cylinder RN, always provided it's turning a correctly matched propeller that can do justice to it. However, reliability and an engine cooling system that will cope with continuous full power running far outweigh the merits and usefulness of a high top speed, and every year a considerable number of boats from the canals find this out during their first lengthy runs on rivers like the Trent and Ouse.

 

As has been mentioned earlier, an anchor and chain/rope cable should be carried. There aren't any weirs to get washed over below Cromwell, but there are a few bridges that you would come off worst in an argument with. You should also get a copy of the Trent navigation charts that were mentioned earlier. I have never seen any of them so I can't comment on how good or accurate they are, but the deepwater channel does follow an odd and unexpected course in some places, especially above Gainsborough.

 

If you want to divert off onto the Fossdyke and the river Witham towards Boston, then you may be best doing that on your way out in May rather than when coming back in July. I haven't been up through Torksey Lock since commercial traffic to Lincoln finished in the 1970's, but I've been told that by mid Summer the weed along there, particularly in the Witham, can get quite bad. Another reason for going North via the Trent instead of the canals is that if there are any doubts as to whether your boat's cooling system is up to continuous full power running, you'll be able to find that out on the upper Trent between Shardlow and Cromwell, instead of it coming as a nasty surprise a few miles upriver from Keadby on the way back.

 

After you've been to Lincoln and/or Boston, there's an easy 15 mile run from Torksey to Stockwith for the Chesterfield Canal and then a 13 mile jaunt from Stockwith to Keadby. If you want to avoid what has nowadays become the usual practice of entering either Stockwith or Keadby locks with the ebb running down past them at a good pace, then it's easy enough to do so by timing your arrival to coincide with local HW, although you won't be able to get the necessary info on departure times for doing that from any of the present day lock keepers.

 

I do provide a pilotage service for pleasure craft on the lower Trent and the Ouse to Naburn, but you're very welcome to any amount of help and advice either via further posts on here, or by PM and/or phone.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Tony Dunkley

[Movin' on]

With regard to your question about engine power, you have more than ample power with, what I assume is, a 2 cylinder RN, always provided it's turning a correctly matched propeller that can do justice to it. However, reliability and an engine cooling system that will cope with continuous full power running far outweigh the merits and usefulness of a high top speed, and every year a considerable number of boats from the canals find this out during their first lengthy runs on rivers like the Trent and Ouse.

 

As has been mentioned earlier, an anchor and chain/rope cable should be carried. There aren't any weirs to get washed over below Cromwell, but there are a few bridges that you would come off worst in an argument with. You should also get a copy of the Trent navigation charts that were mentioned earlier. I have never seen any of them so I can't comment on how good or accurate they are, but the deepwater channel does follow an odd and unexpected course in some places, especially above Gainsborough.

 

If you want to divert off onto the Fossdyke and the river Witham towards Boston, then you may be best doing that on your way out in May rather than when coming back in July. I haven't been up through Torksey Lock since commercial traffic to Lincoln finished in the 1970's, but I've been told that by mid Summer the weed along there, particularly in the Witham, can get quite bad. Another reason for going North via the Trent instead of the canals is that if there are any doubts as to whether your boat's cooling system is up to continuous full power running, you'll be able to find that out on the upper Trent between Shardlow and Cromwell, instead of it coming as a nasty surprise a few miles upriver from Keadby on the way back.

 

After you've been to Lincoln and/or Boston, there's an easy 15 mile run from Torksey to Stockwith for the Chesterfield Canal and then a 13 mile jaunt from Stockwith to Keadby. If you want to avoid what has nowadays become the usual practice of entering either Stockwith or Keadby locks with the ebb running down past them at a good pace, then it's easy enough to do so by timing your arrival to coincide with local HW, although you won't be able to get the necessary info on departure times for doing that from any of the present day lock keepers.

 

I do provide a pilotage service for pleasure craft on the lower Trent and the Ouse to Naburn, but you're very welcome to any amount of help and advice either via further posts on here, or by PM and/or phone.

Thanks for all the comments esp the above - I don't have too many engine concerns as she has done Thames and Severn both ways and Trent/Soar Shardlow to Leicester and, weather permitting, we are doing the Nene pre this jaunt - its the tidal aspect that was the concern and the number of possible stop off points for a slow (not a "how quickly can I do it") cruise.

 

Cheers

Edited March 16, 2016 by Halsey

[Tony Dunkley]

Thanks for all the comments esp the above - I don't have too many engine concerns as she has done Thames and Severn both ways and Trent/Soar Shardlow to Leicester and, weather permitting, we are doing the Nene pre this jaunt - its the tidal aspect that was the concern and the number of possible stop off points for a slow (not a "how quickly can I do it") cruise.

 

Cheers

 

In that case there's nothing you need worry about at all, and the best thing I can say to you is don't be put off from using the Trent by any tales of bad experiences or near disasters that you may hear or read. When boats get into trouble, or don't have an enjoyable trip the cause almost invariably will be down to something that could have been so easily avoided by means of better preparation and/or advice.

Like any other big river, it has the potential to be overwhelming and dangerous if not treated with respect, but, it also has the potential to be a thoroughly enjoyable experience that you will want to repeat.

If you choose the Trent for the northerly leg of your round trip, then the first few miles of tidal waters below Cromwell will almost certainly turn out to be something of a non-event for you, due to the minimal effect the tide has after it's 52 mile journey from the Humber.

For the journey from Cromwell to Torksey you can set off from Cromwell as and when it suits you to do so, and if you have to wait for the next tide to make enough depth over the cill at Torksey for you to get into the Fossdyke, then there are floating landing stages in Torksey Cut for you to wait on.

There is some peculiar latter day belief that the upper reaches of the tidal Trent are best avoided at or near low water because this stretch of the river is relatively shallow, but the reality is that a boat drawing as little as a canalboat and keeping reasonably well to the channel is no more likely to ground at or near low water [LW] than at any other time, and if you do happen to get it wrong somewhere and get fast on a shoal or a ness, then the closer you are to LW, the less time you'll have to wait before the next tide floats you off and you're on your way again.

Being on the move as LW time approaches does in fact make it a lot easier to judge where the deepwater channel is by the extent and the steepness of the exposed stones, sand, gravel or mud on either side of you.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Tony Dunkley

[Movin' on]

In that case there's nothing you need worry about at all, and the best thing I can say to you is don't be put off from using the Trent by any tales of bad experiences or near disasters that you may hear or read. When boats get into trouble, or don't have an enjoyable trip the cause almost invariably will be down to something that could have been so easily avoided by means of better preparation and/or advice.

Like any other big river, it has the potential to be overwhelming and dangerous if not treated with respect, but, it also has the potential to be a thoroughly enjoyable experience that you will want to repeat.

If you choose the Trent for the northerly leg of your round trip, then the first few miles of tidal waters below Cromwell will almost certainly turn out to be something of a non-event for you, due to the minimal effect the tide has after it's 52 mile journey from the Humber.

For the journey from Cromwell to Torksey you can set off from Cromwell as and when it suits you to do so, and if you have to wait for the next tide to make enough depth over the cill at Torksey for you to get into the Fossdyke, then there are floating landing stages in Torksey Cut for you to wait on.

There is some peculiar latter day belief that the upper reaches of the tidal Trent are best avoided at or near low water because this stretch of the river is relatively shallow, but the reality is that a boat drawing as little as a canalboat and keeping reasonably well to the channel is no more likely to ground at or near low water [LW] than at any other time, and if you do happen to get it wrong somewhere and get fast on a shoal or a ness, then the closer you are to LW, the less time you'll have to wait before the next tide floats you off and you're on your way again.

Being on the move as LW time approaches does in fact make it a lot easier to judge where the deepwater channel is by the extent and the steepness of the exposed stones, sand, gravel or mud on either side of you.

Thanks for that

[Midnight]

I find the Trent easier going up with the tide from Keadby to Cromwell simply to avoid the sometimes awkward exit into Keadby Lock. Having said that I have no other concerns about using the Trent either way and will probably do so again this summer. It's a great experience and preferable if you want to boat between the Midlands and the North without all the locks on the Pennine routes.

 

Wigan flight doesn't deserve its reputation. It's true that there's some maintenance issues and the odd dry pound but having done it many times without serious hold ups I can't say I found it any worse than some other flights; and assisted passage is available if required. Personally I would just wait at the top or bottom for another boat to pair up with.

[Tony Dunkley]

Thanks for that

 

There is a topic from last year covering more aspects of the tides on the Trent that you may find interesting, it's title was :~

 

Down the Tidal Trent ~~~ Why not do it the easier way ?

Started by Tony Dunkley, 20 Aug 2015 04:56 PM

 

Mixed in with the useful information there is a considerable quantity of irrelevant and tiresome garbage from a couple of people whose sole intention seemed to be little more than to disrupt the discussion and parade their own ignorance, but it's all quite easy to spot and separate from the constructive, relevant and useful stuff.

[Guest]

Tony Dunkley, on 16 Mar 2016 - 10:20 AM, said:

 

 

There is a topic from last year covering more aspects of the tides on the Trent that you may find interesting, it's title was :~

 

Down the Tidal Trent ~~~ Why not do it the easier way ?

Started by Tony Dunkley, 20 Aug 2015 04:56 PM

 

Mixed in with the useful information there is a considerable quantity of irrelevant and tiresome garbage from a couple of people whose sole intention seemed to be little more than to disrupt the discussion and parade their own ignorance, but it's all quite easy to spot and separate from the constructive, relevant and useful stuff.

 

 

Tony if you had just stuck 'down the tidal trent' in the search box - top right of the forum page, left it on Google it would have took you straight to the the thread.

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=78658

[Tony Dunkley]

 

Tony if you had just stuck 'down the tidal trent' in the search box - top right of the forum page, left it on Google it would have took you straight to the the thread.

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=78658

 

Right, thanks for that Martin, I'll do that next time I want to refer to an old Topic.

I haven't really got the hang of working computers yet, . . . . much better with stuff that runs on paraffin.