Glow Plugs- how long to leave them on?

[cuthound]

Yup, for a Beta 43 I use the same technique as Nick. Just turn it over and it starts. Took DQ out yesterday for the first time in 3 weeks and she started straight away without glow plugs.

 

I tried using the glow plugs for 10 seconds when the cut was frozen over last year. Started straight away, accompanied by lots of white smoke.

[pete.i]

just to add to this thread. BMC engines are old engines. They do not have all the sophiscated (and mostly uneccessary) crap that modern engines have. When a modern engine goes tits up it is infinetly more difficult to fix than a BMC 1.5. If you do the glow plugs for 15 to 30 seconds and the engine starts, even with a bit of churning. It will smoke initially but providing that smoke clears and the old BMC runs sweet then it is a damn good engine and you have nothing to worry about. These engines are old and their compression levels are not what they used to be. A good starter battery is an absolute neccessity with these engines as is a good starter especially in the depths of winter when the oil is thick and heavy. What you are doing Mr OP is perfectly normal for these old engines. If it starts in a reasonable time and runs sweetly don't worry about it. Mine never let me down even in the arctic conditions we had a few years ago. Even though I no longer have that boat I know for a fact that the engine is still excellent as the new owner keeps me informed. During that, extremely, harsh winter we had 30 seconds was all it took and away she went. The only time I had any trouble was when the starter motor was playing up. I called in RCR and they fitted a new starter and the starting was a good as it ever been.

[alan_fincher]

[smug]Beta 43, ambient temperature around zero, zero seconds of glow plug, starts after 1-2 revolutions of the crankshaft.

 

Not all boats have 1960s technology engines, [/smug]

 

And boats that do definitely have 1960s technology do not necessarily need any of the complications listed here.

 

My 1962 and 1963 Lister engines are both direct injection, and have no heaters, simply starting straight away on the button no matter how long since last run.

 

There is a lot to be said for a proper marine engine versus a converted tractor or mini-digger engine.

[Guest]

The claws are out....

[alan_fincher]

Some also needed the the 'throttle' to be open to, again, a set position.

 

The original post wsa of course about a BMC.

 

The operator manual for these actually specifies that whether hot or cod starting, the speed control should be set to fully open.

 

I think many people are reluctant to do this, because once it starts it will quickly rev hard, until the setting is reduced.

 

However it is what the manufacturer specified for a new engine, and oin my experience people attempting to start BMCs on cold days only set the speed control part open.

 

In general, although it is not necessary for a warm or hot engine, my experience was that for a genuine cold start on an icy date, it is the correct thing to do with a BMC.

[Loafer]

Shuuush

 

Sorry!

[alan_fincher]

The claws are out....

 

Not really, but the gorum has many posts about electrical problems on "modern" marinised diesels For example connectors in looms failing, resulting in something not behaving as it should.

 

if you have an engine where the total electrical involvement is whether the starter motor spins it fast enough or not, things tend to be even more reiable.

[Guest]

 

The original post wsa of course about a BMC.

 

The operator manual for these actually specifies that whether hot or cod starting, the speed control should be set to fully open.

 

I think many people are reluctant to do this, because once it starts it will quickly rev hard, until the setting is reduced.

 

However it is what the manufacturer specified for a new engine, and oin my experience people attempting to start BMCs on cold days only set the speed control part open.

 

In general, although it is not necessary for a warm or hot engine, my experience was that for a genuine cold start on an icy date, it is the correct thing to do with a BMC.

 

Indeed this is counter intuitive to me as the oil pressure needs time to build and revving an engine at full chat before it has seems a seriously bad idea.

[alan_fincher]

Indeed this is counter intuitive to me as the oil pressure needs time to build and revving an engine at full chat before it has seems a seriously bad idea.

Yes, but you obviously wind it back before it goes off at full chat.

 

Most old diesels will take a second or two before they do, in my experience.

 

EDIT to remove unexpected quoting of myself!

Edited February 21, 2016 by alan_fincher

[Guest]

Vetus (mitsubishi) 415 always used to need between 10-15 seconds, a bit more in that -20 degrees winter we had, but always started first go. I have noticed that as it gets older it is a little more reluctant to start from cold, and the trick is to let it have a quick burst on the strater, release the key and let it have another quick burst after a second or so. This makes it start much better from cold, though I can't imagine why. (glowplugs appear OK.)

[Keeping Up]

It is clearly different for different engines.

 

Our old Perkins MC42 control panel had "12 SEC MAX" engraved next top the "Heat" position of the keyswitch.It was difficult to start without heating, even in midsummer, but always started first t ime after 10 seconds of heat in even the coldest weather.

 

Our new Beta 43 doesn't seem to need the plugs, but I note that the manual recommends no more than 10 seconds of heating. It specifically states "Warning! Do not leave the key in ‘HEAT’ position for more than 15 seconds - this will damage the heater plugs and eventually lead to poor starting." --- It also recommends one-third throttle

[Traveller]

What I find hard to understand with my BMC 1.5 is the procedure for starting - turn key to left and hold against spring to heat the glow plugs then turn further left to turn engine over and start and finally move the key all the way to the right once engine is running. Cannot understand why the set-up is like that - why not turn key left to heat and right to start!

[RLWP]

What I find hard to understand with my BMC 1.5 is the procedure for starting - turn key to left and hold against spring to heat the glow plugs then turn further left to turn engine over and start and finally move the key all the way to the right once engine is running. Cannot understand why the set-up is like that - why not turn key left to heat and right to start!

 

Ours is different. To the right one notch for run, to the right against the spring to power the plugs, to the right again to start. Release the key and it goes back to run

 

Richard

Edited February 21, 2016 by RLWP

[BEngo]

Indeed this is counter intuitive to me as the oil pressure needs time to build and revving an engine at full chat before it has seems a seriously bad idea.

Apart rom Alan's point, the other thing to remember is that all that oil pressure is only needed to provide a cooling flow of oil to the bearings. The lubrication function needs very little pressure as that is generated inside the bearing by the wedge of oil in the clearance between the bearing and the shaft. When the engine is stone cold there is no need for cooling for the first few seconds so a speed-up can be tolerated. Of course if the journals are so slack that all the oil has drained out whilst standing then the bearing metal will take a pounding.

 

You should always turn a long-stood cold engine by hand, or on the starter to circulate some oil before trying to get it going. Mr Bergius always recommended that Kelvin engine bearings should be splashed with oil by hand after the engine had stood for a long time. As an aside neither the Kelvin J or the K/L engines had any oil pressure, relying on a plunger pump that squirted oil in the general direction of the bearings which have decent sized reservoirs in the bearing housings. AKA spit and hope in the same way as an Austin 7.

 

N

[ditchcrawler]

 

I've been wondering this too. I was advised 10s but that seems a long time - all the cars/vans I've owned had a pre-heat light on the dash which went off after no more than 4-5s and the engines always fired up instantly, even when very cold. I've also read that you can damage the plugs if you overcook them.

 

Unlike my old Landrover who needed a long heat to start in cold weather. They were low voltage ones in series.

Apart rom Alan's point, the other thing to remember is that all that oil pressure is only needed to provide a cooling flow of oil to the bearings. The lubrication function needs very little pressure as that is generated inside the bearing by the wedge of oil in the clearance between the bearing and the shaft. When the engine is stone cold there is no need for cooling for the first few seconds so a speed-up can be tolerated. Of course if the journals are so slack that all the oil has drained out whilst standing then the bearing metal will take a pounding.

 

You should always turn a long-stood cold engine by hand, or on the starter to circulate some oil before trying to get it going. Mr Bergius always recommended that Kelvin engine bearings should be splashed with oil by hand after the engine had stood for a long time. As an aside neither the Kelvin J or the K/L engines had any oil pressure, relying on a plunger pump that squirted oil in the general direction of the bearings which have decent sized reservoirs in the bearing housings. AKA spit and hope in the same way as an Austin 7.

 

N

Saturday morning job, bar the engines over

[Traveller]

 

Ours is different. To the right one notch for run, to the right against the spring to power the plugs, to the right again to start. Release the key and it goes back to run

 

Richard

At least your key is only going one way and defaults back to run. Turning extreme left to start our engine and letting go of the key leaves the engine running so I cannot understand why the key has to be turned all the way to the right again (and turning right is for hot start too). I think it might be that certain parts of the circuit are not activated unless key is to the right - temp gauge is I think one.

[Señor Chris]

why not turn key left to heat and right to start!

 

Because the plugs would go off while starting? It has been suggested that on vehicle engines, the plugs remain on during cranking and for the first few seconds of running. To replicate this on my boat will require holding down the push-button for the plugs while cranking the engine over which I have not tried before.

[Traveller]

 

Because the plugs would go off while starting? It has been suggested that on vehicle engines, the plugs remain on during cranking and for the first few seconds of running. To replicate this on my boat will require holding down the push-button for the plugs while cranking the engine over which I have not tried before.

That could well be the reason.

[Loafer]

Right.

 

So what's a glow plug again? Why haven't I got any? (Beta BD3)

[nicknorman]

 

There is a lot to be said for a proper marine engine versus a converted tractor or mini-digger engine.

 

Is there? Like what? And tbh I'm not sure that there are any "proper marine engines" used in narrowboats, don't the base engines have various uses, propelling boats being just one?

[Loafer]

That's one of the queries I always had about Gardner engines. Lovely sound, but never on an old narrowboat, ISTR.

[ditchcrawler]

 

Is there? Like what? And tbh I'm not sure that there are any "proper marine engines" used in narrowboats, don't the base engines have various uses, propelling boats being just one?

Mine was a Ford Dexta

[Loafer]

Mine was a Ford Dexta

 

A BD3? Thought it was 3000 series plus...

[ditchcrawler]

 

A BD3? Thought it was 3000 series plus...

I was always told it was a Dexta engine.

[Loafer]

I was always told it was a Dexta engine.

 

It could still be - they used the same block in many of their tractor models. It is based on a Lister CRK3 if I'm not very much mistaken. The flywheel case on mine is labelled 'Lister'.

 

Super engine. As trustworthy as a very trustworthy thing.