Glow Plugs- how long to leave them on?

[nicknorman]

I still think this is a reasonable statement, without further qualification.

It is unreasonable in that it has no reason - or justification, or basis in fact, or supporting evidence if you like. And we don't even know what it is that you think there is a lot to be said about? Perhaps it's about the smokiness, poor starting, noise and vibration that you would sorely miss in say a kubota engine?

 

It is just a statement that reflects your personal opinion, one which you are entitled to of course, but if you are not prepared to provide any qualification, evidence or discussion then it can't be taken too seriously.

[alan_fincher]

In the context of this thread.....

 

A boat engine with indirect injection regularly needs glow plugs deployed, at least in the coldest weathers, or it may be a reluctant starter. OK some will start without in cold conditions, but the majority will not.

 

There are plenty of posts about issues with glow plugs, whether that be wiring faults, sooting, failure of individual plugs, or whatever.

Not all these are about crappy old 40 or 50 year old smoky engines. Some are about modern engines, where, for example dodgy connectors in the wiring looms can cause issues.

 

A boat engine that is directly injected does not have or need glow plugs.

Provided it can be spun over, (by starter motor, or by hand if the battery is completely knackered), it will start.

"There is a lot to be said for that."

[nicknorman]

In the context of this thread.....

 

A boat engine with indirect injection regularly needs glow plugs deployed, at least in the coldest weathers, or it may be a reluctant starter. OK some will start without in cold conditions, but the majority will not.

 

There are plenty of posts about issues with glow plugs, whether that be wiring faults, sooting, failure of individual plugs, or whatever.

Not all these are about crappy old 40 or 50 year old smoky engines. Some are about modern engines, where, for example dodgy connectors in the wiring looms can cause issues.

 

A boat engine that is directly injected does not have or need glow plugs.

Provided it can be spun over, (by starter motor, or by hand if the battery is completely knackered), it will start.

"There is a lot to be said for that."

It's the same argument that proposes that an Austin 7 with a starting handle is a better car than a Nissan Micra. One I don't subscribe to. If your boat is a pile of badly wired and un-maintained junk then yes ultimately if it will start on the handle without electrics that is an advantage. But it would be better to have an adequately wired and maintained boat that starts on the button. I have been boating since the late 60s and can't ever recall failing to start on the button. I don't think it is worth enduring smoke, noise, vibration, oil leaks and an alternator that competes with a glow worm just for that less-than-once-in-a-lifetime event. Of course one could always get a horse.

 

Anyway the difference is that you are coming to this having had a BMC, an engine I wouldn't want to have, and moved on to something direct inject (can't remember what it is) whereas I have moved from listers to a Beta 43 which is chalk and cheese from a BMC. You can't generalise, the devil is in the detail of the specific model of engine and its installation.

Edited February 23, 2016 by nicknorman

[Albion]

This thread does remind us how archane diesel narrow boat engines are.

 

I get in my diesel car in the morning insert key turn and engine starts.

 

What is it that modern diesels in cars do that older designed diesels in boats do not?

 

As to the OP. I found much the same if our Isuzu had been left in the cold for more than a week or so.

Sorry to be so late on this item as I have only just read this thread. My old 2.8 Isuzu Trooper (back in 1991) had IIRC 6 volt plugs that were heated by 12 volts for a brief period before a timed relay brought in a dropper resistance. This was called a quick start system and really was. The engine started in any temperature almost instantly and the warning light was, of course, soon switched off. It is quite possible that modern car engines could use a similar technology but I cannot confirm that as i have been out of the motor trade for some years now.

Roger

[Tony Brooks]

Perhaps ask those who have had a proper marine engine like a DV36 and have had other marinised engines around 30 to 25 bhp which they prefer or consider superior.

[nicknorman]

Perhaps ask those who have had a proper marine engine like a DV36 and have had other marinised engines around 30 to 25 bhp which they prefer or consider superior.

I'm sure they prefer and consider them superior, but are they actually superior at being the prime mover on a pleasure boat and if so, why?

[Tony Brooks]

Smoother because of a great big flywheel and internal balance weights (harmonic balancer). Direct injection so easy cold starting. High mounted starter and alternator so easier to get on and off. Option of hand start. Internal anode for direct raw water cooling. Large crankshaft pulley so gives a good charge at low revs with a larger alternator pulley than many (better wrap & grip). Oh, and conforms with requirements for ships lifeboats so will happily run upside down for a designate period of time, however I do not see that as an advantage on canal boats but it may indicate larger bearing surface areas than actually needed. If so that should reduce the rate of wear.

[MtB]

Getting back to the OP, I have to heat the glowplug in the Skandia for about 15 minutes before it will start...

[peterboat]

Smoother because of a great big flywheel and internal balance weights (harmonic balancer). Direct injection so easy cold starting. High mounted starter and alternator so easier to get on and off. Option of hand start. Internal anode for direct raw water cooling. Large crankshaft pulley so gives a good charge at low revs with a larger alternator pulley than many (better wrap & grip). Oh, and conforms with requirements for ships lifeboats so will happily run upside down for a designate period of time, however I do not see that as an advantage on canal boats but it may indicate larger bearing surface areas than actually needed. If so that should reduce the rate of wear.

my first boat had a kubota in it that was not marinised. it was new when i bought it, and always started on the button without heat

[nicknorman]

Smoother because of a great big flywheel and internal balance weights (harmonic balancer). Direct injection so easy cold starting. High mounted starter and alternator so easier to get on and off. Option of hand start. Internal anode for direct raw water cooling. Large crankshaft pulley so gives a good charge at low revs with a larger alternator pulley than many (better wrap & grip). Oh, and conforms with requirements for ships lifeboats so will happily run upside down for a designate period of time, however I do not see that as an advantage on canal boats but it may indicate larger bearing surface areas than actually needed. If so that should reduce the rate of wear.

Beta 43 - very smooth due to flexi mountings and a well balanced engine (not sure if it has internal balancer shaft, probably not being 4 cyl and relatively short stroke). Starts instantly without preheating even in sub-zero. 3 high mounted alternators. No option to hand start, but then no need since the electrics are reliable. In the same way that there is no storage for hay for the horse. Large crankshaft pulleys allowing something like 160A from the domestic alternator at idle, 2kw from the Travelpower alternator at idle, with polyvee belts for good grip. No inverted running capability but if that is the best "plus" you can come up with for a canal boat I think you need to rest in a dark room! Modern engines are built to much tighter tolerances and better materials and so life is likely to be longer than for a lifeboat engine which, hopefully, doesn't need to run for many thousands of hours unless the skipper is really incompetent.

 

Oh and no smoke later than 2 seconds after starting, zero oil consumption between changes, zero leakage of oil. Easy oil changes (built in pump), automatic fuel system bleeding following filter changes etc.

 

I really don't understand this mentality. You try marketing a car whose main selling point is that it has a starting handle for when it fails to start on the button, and see if you can make your fortune. I somehow doubt it. If enthusiasts want to have old engines then fine, that is their choice, but I rile when it is implied that they are somehow better than modern engines because it is not true.

Edited February 23, 2016 by nicknorman

[nicknorman]

Oh and by the way, it is this sort of mentality (stuff we did 50 years ago is still the best way to do it and much better than new-fangled modern stuff) that is responsible for the decline or virtual extinction of manufacturing in this country.

[RLWP]

decline or virtual extinction of manufacturing in this country.

 

Evidence to support that please

 

Richard

[nicknorman]

 

Evidence to support that please

 

Richard

 

Evidence to refute that please.

Edited February 23, 2016 by nicknorman

[RLWP]

 

Evidence to refute that please.

 

You said it with confidence, Nick, I think you should prove it.

 

From my dealings in the real world, manufacturing seems pretty healthy in the UK

 

Richard

[nicknorman]

 

You said it with confidence, Nick, I think you should prove it.

 

From my dealings in the real world, manufacturing seems pretty healthy in the UK

 

Richard

It is not the sort of thing that can be "proven" without recourse to a lot of research and statistical analysis etc.

 

However if you like I will modify it. Those industries that tried to perpetuate the old ways - I'm thinking for example of the British manufacturers of cars and motorcycles, eg BL and Norton/Triumph. Are long dead. Those industries that discarded the old ways and moved with the times are successful. eg new Triumph, JLR (although not really British). As you say, there is some healthy manufacturing in the UK but it is not based on making (for example) engines to a 50 year old design using 50 year old processes.

[RLWP]

It is not the sort of thing that can be "proven" without recourse to a lot of research and statistical analysis etc.

 

However if you like I will modify it. Those industries that tried to perpetuate the old ways - I'm thinking for example of the British manufacturers of cars and motorcycles, eg BL and Norton/Triumph. Are long dead. Those industries that discarded the old ways and moved with the times are successful. eg new Triumph, JLR (although not really British). As you say, there is some healthy manufacturing in the UK but it is not based on making (for example) engines to a 50 year old design using 50 year old processes.

 

That's really not what you said Nick

 

Richard

[nicknorman]

 

That's really not what you said Nick

 

Richard

 

It was, within the context of the thread, which was to make the point that if you stick with "the old ways and designs are the best" you will come rapidly unstuck. But even despite some manufacturing successes in the UK, if you look back at history we have lost a lot of manufacturing capability and are no longer the international manufacturing power house that we once were. Or at least that's what I'm told, I haven't been around counting it myself. But there is plenty of evidence around the BCN.

[MtB]

I'd like to clarify, I'm not in the 'old ways are best' camp AT ALL, in case anyone assumes I am, just because I like my vintage diesels.

 

The thing is, they have a charm about them I find missing from modern engineering, and they make nice toys to play with. When it comes to engineering I need to trust and rely on, I drive a modern Mercedes. Albeit a van.

[nicknorman]

I'd like to clarify, I'm not in the 'old ways are best' camp AT ALL, in case anyone assumes I am, just because I like my vintage diesels.

 

The thing is, they have a charm about them I find missing from modern engineering, and they make nice toys to play with. When it comes to engineering I need to trust and rely on, I drive a modern Mercedes. Albeit a van.

 

All of which is absolutely fine, of course. Nothing to be ashamed of, although I believe there are help groups...

[MtB]

Interestingly, one of the glow plugs in the van has failed, so yes I may yet need a help group, for pushing it.................

Oh and the estimate to replace the glowplug is £2k....!

[peterboat]

i would love an old gardner in a proper engine room, i would hate a bmc in anything. my present boat has a barrus shire reliable as the day is long but it doesnt have soul, however does the job, horses for courses comes to mind

[nicknorman]

Interestingly, one of the glow plugs in the van has failed, so yes I may yet need a help group, for pushing it.................

Oh and the estimate to replace the glowplug is £2k....!

 

Surely not! Are they made of solid platinum?

Edited February 23, 2016 by nicknorman

[peterboat]

Interestingly, one of the glow plugs in the van has failed, so yes I may yet need a help group, for pushing it.................

Oh and the estimate to replace the glowplug is £2k....!

rear one under the bulkhead by any chance

[bizzard]

During the 1970's I visited Stuart Turners at Henley on Thames to purchase some sterngear for a boat. It was like being in a time warp, everything there was ancient including the workforce, but, what clever skills they all had though, working with really old machine tools, one Sentinel centre lathe must have been 50 years old,then, but all kept in immaculate, like new condition. Stuart Turner made a massive amount of products, from steam plants and boilers, miniature steam plants, machined kits and boilers and finished models for model engineers. Numerous marine engines and gearboxes, petrol and diesel, all manner of marine equipment, sterngear, prop shafts, adjustable shaft logs, A and B brackets, sea cocks, all manner of valves and taps ect ect, all manufactured in house, which was really a complex of sheds.

[MtB]

Nope. Glow plugs on Mercs leak from new, so they get encased in carbon after 250k miles, and fitted in a deep recess in the head. They are also insanely tight and prone to snapping off when eventually got at and turned. The fix then becomes a new cylinder head.

 

Apparently there are people around who make a living specialising in getting the glow plugs out of Mercs!

 

Prolly time to change the van actually...