New build boat

[boater123]

Hi,

 

Just wondering if anyone knows whether a home build boat needs to comply with both the BSS and the RCD rules?

 

Kind regards,

 

Boater 123

[Alan de Enfield]

1) It will need to comply with the BSS, be tested and receive a certificate before it can be licensed on Inland waterways. (If it has an RCD you don't need a BSS for the 1st licence)

 

2) It will need to comply with the RCD if you intend to sell it within 5 years of it first being placed in the water after completion. But - remember, whilst you may not plan to sell it within 5 years, things happen,- unemployment, divorce, death, financial burden, children, etc etc. If you do sell a Non RCD boat within 5 years, not only will you have great difficulty finding a buyer, and will have to heavily discount the price, you will be breaking the law.

 

Build it to RCD standards.

[David Mack]

2) It will need to comply with the RCD if you intend to sell it within 5 years of it first being placed in the water after completion.

Intending to sell has nothing to do with it. What matters is that it must comply with the RCD if it is put on the market within 5 years. "Putting on the market" means offering for sale. No actual sale needs to take place, and there does not have to have been any earlier intention to sell.

 

Unhelpfully the RCD does not state when the 5 year period is.

 

It could be 5 years from first use, but 'use' could take place as soon as the hull or shell is completed, as fitout often takes place on the water, and many self-builders may choose to go boating in an incomplete boat.

 

5 years from completion isn't much help either - many a home built (or fitted out) boat is never actually 'completed' - it just imperceptibly morphs from a process of 'building' to a process of maintenance, repair and upgrading.

 

And if, say, the builder of a self-built boat, not built (or documented) to the RCD requirements dies within the 5 year period, or goes bankrupt and has all his possessions seized, what should happen to the vessel? It cannot legally be offered for sale. So should it be given away? Broken up?

 

Is anyone aware of any legal cases arising from a non RCD-compliant self built boat being put up for sale within the 5 years?

Edited December 18, 2015 by David Mack

[Sea Dog]

Is anyone aware of any legal cases arising from a non RCD-compliant self built boat being put up for sale within the 5 years?

 

I don't know about that, but I regularly pass shells and sailaways that have no hope of being sold as 'boats' within 5 years! How does the law apply to selling on 'part-finished projects'?

[rjasmith]

 

I don't know about that, but I regularly pass shells and sailaways that have no hope of being sold as 'boats' within 5 years! How does the law apply to selling on 'part-finished projects'?

 

Not really a problem I believe.

 

Anyone who has bought a shell or sailaway should have obtained an RCD Annex IIIa "Part complete craft" declaration from the shell or sailaway supplier. This will certify that the relevant RCD standards have been complied with in the build so far. The declaration also effectively "hands" the boat on to the purchaser who then becomes responsible for the work done so far AS WELL as the further work he does to fit out the boat.

 

Normally the purchaser would fully complete it and then certify that using the full RCD Annex XV Declaration (including the work his shell/sailaway supplier did before him).

 

However he could decide to sell it before fully complete and then he would need to fill out another Annex IIIa declaration covering the shell/sailaway work plus the work he has done to whatever stage the boat has now reached.

 

This would "hand on" responsibility for the WHOLE build to the next purchaser and could presumably be repeated any number of times.

 

Only a later owner/builder who decides he has fully completed the boat needs to do the final Annex XV.

 

Of course he now becomes "THE BUILDER" under the RCD, responsible for the entire project and would be the one Trading Standards would direct themselves to in the event that any person he sells the boat to finds a problem with ANY aspect of the build that is not RCD compliant!

 

Richard

Edited December 18, 2015 by rjasmith

[sjc]

More to the point, any safety recommendations should be followed no matter who builds it or uses it. They have evolved over many years to keep people safe. Also, if anything did happen to a guest / visitor I doubt you would be in a good position having ignored the standards...

[dianamay]

As one involved in a sail away I have taken great interest in the need for a RCD. Instigated I believe in

its current form by the EU with major contributions by the UK, who I understand introduced the BSS

certificate earlier am I correct in assuming that it is a EU law and as such interested as to what would

happen if we vote- which I personally hope we do-to leave. Obviously our government may decide to retain

such legislation but then how does it conflict in the detail with Lloyds build rules? I`d be interested in others views.

[MtB]

 

Not really a problem I believe.

 

Anyone who has bought a shell or sailaway should have obtained an RCD Annex IIIa "Part complete craft" declaration from the shell or sailaway supplier. This will certify that the relevant RCD standards have been complied with in the build so far. The declaration also effectively "hands" the boat on to the purchaser who then becomes responsible for the work done so far AS WELL as the further work he does to fit out the boat.

 

Normally the purchaser would fully complete it and then certify that using the full RCD Annex XV Declaration (including the work his shell/sailaway supplier did before him).

 

However he could decide to sell it before fully complete and then he would need to fill out another Annex IIIa declaration covering the shell/sailaway work plus the work he has done to whatever stage the boat has now reached.

 

This would "hand on" responsibility for the WHOLE build to the next purchaser and could presumably be repeated any number of times.

 

Only a later owner/builder who decides he has fully completed the boat needs to do the final Annex XV.

 

Of course he now becomes "THE BUILDER" under the RCD, responsible for the entire project and would be the one Trading Standards would direct themselves to in the event that any person he sells the boat to finds a problem with ANY aspect of the build that is not RCD compliant!

 

Richard

 

 

Which is of course a complete farce when push comes to shove.

 

I once bought a boat that should have had an RCD but didn't. It was exactly the boat I wanted and found it after months of looking and searching. The absence of the RCD was consequently a trivial detail to me. I paid full market value for it.

 

When I came to sell it, my buyer found it to be exactly the boat he wanted, after months of looking and searching. He paid me full market value for it. The absense of the RCD was a trivial matter to him...

[Chewbacka]

................ am I correct in assuming that it is a EU law and as such interested as to what would

happen if we vote- which I personally hope we do-to leave. Obviously our government may decide to retain

such legislation but then how does it conflict in the detail with Lloyds build rules? I`d be interested in others views.

Actually the EU issue directives that the individual countries then put into their own national laws. So the requirement for a new build to meet various standards BS EN ISO....... etc is UK law. Of course should we leave the EU it would be possible to repeal that law, but I suspect that should we leave then things like Human rights and working time directives will be much higher up the governments list of reviews. If we do leave we should lobby to go back to red diesel, now that would be good.

[Neil Smith]

So if you build to bss only and need to sell within 5 years can't you advertise it as needs finishing

 

Neil

[dianamay]

A quote from the net "European Commission first threatened to open infringement proceedings against the UK Government claiming the UK was not adhering to EU directives on fiscal marketing, designed to prevent the improper use of certain petroleum products" So the belief that our Government makes the laws is in my opinion totally mis-guided. Mind you get into politics and you could claim your leisure fuel usage against expenses!!!!!

[raymondh]

Building to the RCD is not difficult, in fact if you can get copies of the required standards its like a how to do it in easy stages

 

What is difficult is getting the standards without spending lots of money

 

For most folk the owners manual and technical file will prove to be a challenge, however its all possible and when completed

the satisfaction of knowing that your boat is built to the required standards

 

Good Luck

 

Ray

[Murflynn]

So if you build to bss only and need to sell within 5 years can't you advertise it as needs finishing

 

Neil

yes, but the RCD Annexe requirements in post #5 still apply

[Chewbacka]

yes, but the RCD Annexe requirements in post #5 still apply

So the work that you had done would have to meet the regs, otherwise you would not be able to issue the annex declaring that the boat meets those regs.

You could also be called on to show you are competent as a boat builder as you would be signing the declaration, but as it is self cert, that would probably arise if something went wrong.

But basically if you wish to legally sell it within 5 years, the work done must comply with the stds.

Edited December 23, 2015 by Chewbacka

[mrsmelly]

 

 

Which is of course a complete farce when push comes to shove.

 

I once bought a boat that should have had an RCD but didn't. It was exactly the boat I wanted and found it after months of looking and searching. The absence of the RCD was consequently a trivial detail to me. I paid full market value for it.

 

When I came to sell it, my buyer found it to be exactly the boat he wanted, after months of looking and searching. He paid me full market value for it. The absense of the RCD was a trivial matter to him...

 

Completely agree. My last boat had no RCD the guy I bought it from didnt give a hoot when he bought it at approx 18months of age, The boat was great so I didnt give a hoot either. The bloke who bought it from me for full price in cash without a survey within a week for full price didnt give two hoots either.

The initial owner who sold it at 18 months old is not nor has ever languished in jail for the offence. Some rules are un policeable and therefore stupid as with the piece of nonsense paper RCD. My present boat does comply with the RCD but in many ways isnt as good as my last boat that didnt comply.

 

Tim

[system 4-50]

 

Completely agree. My last boat had no RCD the guy I bought it from didnt give a hoot when he bought it at approx 18months of age, The boat was great so I didnt give a hoot either. The bloke who bought it from me for full price in cash without a survey within a week for full price didnt give two hoots either.

The initial owner who sold it at 18 months old is not nor has ever languished in jail for the offence. Some rules are un policeable and therefore stupid as with the piece of nonsense paper RCD. My present boat does comply with the RCD but in many ways isnt as good as my last boat that didnt comply.

 

Tim

Obviously your boat(s) had less than the minimum number of hoots required by the RCD. I bet this kept you awake at nights.

Edited December 23, 2015 by system 4-50

[rjasmith]

I know many of us like to poke fun at the RCD from time to time but I think an important point is being missed here.

 

Purchasers of boats that should be RCD compliant but aren't have nothing to worry about as several folks above have just said. This is also true if they subsequently sell it on, as the boat is now second hand.

 

If purchasers of such boats are happy with their boat, the original seller of the new completed boat is also probably not going to get into any trouble.

 

However if a Seller of a new complete boat (AKA the Boat Builder under the RCD) sells to a purchaser who subsequently becomes unhappy about it and decides to call in his local Trading Standards (TS), who may check it out against the RCD requirements, then the original seller of the new completed boat is definitely at risk of prosecution from TS if he has not properly certified it under the RCD.

 

Whether the local TS take up such a case will depend on their resource levels and knowledge of the RCD etc and it may well be that the risk of them doing anything against a private person, building just one boat, is low.

 

However I wouldn't like to try it myself as someone who is fitting out a bare shell, especially as I live in Sussex just next door to Hants where the TS dept is very hot on the RCD (presumably because of the local salty boat building industry - see their website for evidence of this!).

 

I am unlikely to want to sell my boat so could always declare it RCD exempt under the 5 year rule but unforeseen events could occur and I wouldn't want to saddle my family with having to sell it early. We have discussed this and have a number of (legal!) options on how to deal with it - one could be simply breaking the boat up for scrap!

 

Richard

Edited December 28, 2015 by rjasmith

[Chewbacka]

 

..........I am unlikely to want to sell my boat so could always declare it RCD exempt under the 5 year rule but unforeseen events could occur and I wouldn't want to saddle my family with having to sell it early. We have discussed this and have a number of (legal!) options on how to deal with it - one could be simply breaking the boat up for scrap!

 

Richard

Your family can of course just keep it until it is 5 years old and then sell it. - A lot less drastic than scrapping it.

 

As to risk of selling a boat without an RCD, I have been unable to find any prosecution for selling an inland boat without an RCD within it's first 5 years. Make of that what you will.

Edited December 28, 2015 by Chewbacka