Hall Green Stop Lock

[Heartland]

The ariel view of Hall Green Stop with the Trent & Mersey canal gates marked in yellow seems to be the correct version of what was the case and the Cheshire Tithe seems to confirm this. The Macclesfield Canal Lock Cottage was in Old Rode Parish and the Trent & Mersey Lock and cottage was in Church Lawton Parish, The canal from Hardings Wood was constructed to the design of Thomas Telford and was an alteration to a different route surveyed by Frederick Giles who had the junction with the Macclesfield Canal at what he called Western Lock. That plan was not built and the two-lock "regulating lock" was the arrangement as built with two sets of gates for each company control and operation depending on water levels for the respective company. A similar arrangement was used at Horseleyfields where the Wyrley & Essington met the BCN where the Wednesfield Level was nominally a few inches higher than the BCN Wolverhampton Level. In BW days the canal level of the T & M was reduced to enable a better clearance for Harecastle Tunnel. Where the nationalisation fall was about 6 inches at Hall Green the drop became 12 inches and only two lock gates were needed when the former LMS and LNER canals came under the new ownership of BR and then the DIWE.

 

As the intended "Hall Green" branch (Giles) was not built, but a canal made through principally the Church Lawton estate (Telford), I personally choose to call the revised route as the Hall End in order to distinguish it from the original plan.

The RCHS Edwin Shearing Collection image at Hall Green for 1972 shows the amended arrangement as seen from the former Trent & Mersey Canal Lock chamber-

 

 

Edited March 26 by Heartland

[Ray T]

There is also the remains of one under the "old" Northampton to Daventry Rd.  Bridge No 24 at Weedon.

Second picture from NarrowBoat Magazine.

Edited March 26 by Ray T

[Kingsford]

22 hours ago, David Mack said:

Since the junction is at the bottom level of the Macclesfield Canal, occasions when the Macclesfield was lower than the T&M must have been infrequent. But the T&M lock would have protected the T&M in the event of leakage on the Macc, or a breach or even draining of the Macc for maintenance.

 

That's what I kind of figured, and I figure that during regular operations that the doors on the T&M lock were probably left opened most of the time. Also, since it could be operated in either direction, does that mean the southernmost and northern most gates in this chamber sat on a sill so they are both "upper" gates? What of the area in between the two locks?

 

BTW, any current examples of canal junctions like this which still operate where either side is higher? Would love to see some profile drawings like Pluto just posted to be better able to visualize their workings. Someone's got to be able to mock up a profile of the Hall Green lock chamber in Paint, or something, and it'd be a nice reference document for future questions.

 

Honestly, I'd message someone about this so as not to clutter the thread, but it says I need 10 posts to do this.

Edited March 27 by Kingsford

[magpie patrick]

8 hours ago, Kingsford said:

 

That's what I kind of figured, and I figure that during regular operations that the doors on the T&M lock were probably left opened most of the time. Also, since it could be operated in either direction, does that mean the southernmost and northern most gates in this chamber sat on a sill so they are both "upper" gates? What of the area in between the two locks?

 

BTW, any current examples of canal junctions like this which still operate where either side is higher? Would love to see some profile drawings like Pluto just posted to be better able to visualize their workings. Someone's got to be able to mock up a profile of the Hall Green lock chamber in Paint, or something, and it'd be a nice reference document for future questions.

 

I can't think of any location on canals now where a lock could work in either direction. There are a few where canals join tidal rivers, or non-tidal rivers join tidal rivers. Keadby is an example of the first and Ferriby Sluice an example of the second. Then there is the unique Mutford Lock, in Lowestoft, which has tidal waters both sides - it changes direction of fall every tide!

[David Mack]

10 hours ago, Kingsford said:

Also, since it could be operated in either direction, does that mean the southernmost and northern most gates in this chamber sat on a sill so they are both "upper" gates?

All four sets of gates would have cills. But yes the outer gates are 'top' gates and the inner ones 'bottom' gates.

10 hours ago, Kingsford said:

BTW, any current examples of canal junctions like this which still operate where either side is higher?

Stop locks were installed where different company's canals met, as all were protective of their own water. But with, firstly mergers between companies, and later nationalisation of the whole network, water supply became a common resource and there was no need to maintain separation, and so where the level difference was negligible the locks ceased to function. The stop locks that remain typically have a fall of several inches e.g. Hall Green, Autherley, Dutton.

[Ray T]

9 hours ago, David Mack said:

All four sets of gates would have cills. But yes the outer gates are 'top' gates and the inner ones 'bottom' gates.

Stop locks were installed where different company's canals met, as all were protective of their own water. But with, firstly mergers between companies, and later nationalisation of the whole network, water supply became a common resource and there was no need to maintain separation, and so where the level difference was negligible the locks ceased to function. The stop locks that remain typically have a fall of several inches e.g. Hall Green, Autherley, Dutton.

 

Plus, Sutton Stop of course.

Edited March 27 by Ray T

[Heartland]

If Kingsford would like to email me at rayshill2 [at ] gmail.com, I will see if there is a way to look at his question

 

Other stop locks had two sets of gates at either end of a single lock gate such as at Gas Street, (Worcester & Birmingham/ BCN) and Digbeth (Warwick & Birmingham/BCN)

 

The BCN also had internal stops to complicate matters which were for traffic purposes- these include-

 

Sneyd Stop (Wyrley & Essington) was a change of level originally between the Wednesfield Level and the canal from Sneyd through Birchills to the top of the Locks at Brownhills

 

Rowley Stop on the Dudley 

 

Bloomfield Stop on the main line to Coseley Tunnel

 

[BEngo]

There are gauging stops for traffic and toll control ( but which are not actually locks)  on other canals than the BCN and its immediate connections.

 

Brinklow stop  on the Oxford,  the two for paired narrow boats at Norton Junction and Paddington Stop spring to mind.  

 

N

[Hudds Lad]

5 hours ago, Ray T said:

 

Plus, Sutton Stop of course.

Now i’ve worked out the orientation of that pic, i’m intrigued how that car got there. Was there a road where the fishing ponds are? Or was the out of camera view layout of the junction different?

[David Mack]

18 minutes ago, Hudds Lad said:

Now i’ve worked out the orientation of that pic, i’m intrigued how that car got there. Was there a road where the fishing ponds are? Or was the out of camera view layout of the junction different?

Probably driven over the main junction footbridge. It's just about wide enough, and cars were narrower back then.

Do you have a date for that picture, Ray? The cottage on the left is long gone now, but that on the right survives.

 

[Ray T]

3 hours ago, Hudds Lad said:

Now i’ve worked out the orientation of that pic, i’m intrigued how that car got there. Was there a road where the fishing ponds are? Or was the out of camera view layout of the junction different?

The car was driven over the bridge across the junction. It is just wide enough.

 

 

2 hours ago, David Mack said:

Probably driven over the main junction footbridge. It's just about wide enough, and cars were narrower back then.

Do you have a date for that picture, Ray? The cottage on the left is long gone now, but that on the right survives.

 

I would hazard a guess in the 1950's, don't know for sure.

 

The cottage on the right was the lock keeper's house. Mike H lived there before he retired.
A couple more photo's, 1st photo from CRT Archive Whitsun 1956. 2nd, CRT Archive. The white house was demolished a long time ago.

 

Back on topic. This picture is from Getty Archive, it is the narrows on the Coventry Canal with the toll House back LHS.

 Was this narrows ever a stop lock or gauging point? I can see no evidence of it being a stop lock Perhaps a gauging point when the junction of the Coventry and Oxford Canals was at Longford?

Edited March 27 by Ray T

[Kingsford]

11 hours ago, Heartland said:

If Kingsford would like to email me at rayshill2 [at ] gmail.com, I will see if there is a way to look at his question

 

The email address does not work.

 

[Derek R.]

I spy the sidecar wheel of a motorcycle and sidecar under the tarp . . .

 

[Heartland]

If Kingsford would like to email me at rayshill2 [at ] gmail.com, I will see if there is a way to look at his question

 

The email address does not work.

 

Should be

rayshill25 [at] gmail.com

chairman West Midlands Group (RCHS)

 

 

There are gauging stops for traffic and toll control ( but which are not actually locks)  on other canals than the BCN and its immediate connections.

 

Brinklow stop on the Oxford,  the two for paired narrow boats at Norton Junction and Paddington Stop spring to mind.  

 

This is again a subject with a number of examples

The Oxford also had a stop at Braunston by the toll office which was removed when the canal there was widened by the Grand Union in 1933

 

[Ray T]

1 hour ago, Heartland said:

Snip: This is again a subject with a number of examples

The Oxford also had a stop at Braunston by the toll office which was removed when the canal there was widened by the Grand Union in 1933

 

 

Photo's from CRT Archive.

 

https://collections.canalrivertrust.org.uk/results

 

Edited March 28 by Ray T

[BEngo]

7 hours ago, Derek R. said:

I spy the sidecar wheel of a motorcycle and sidecar under the tarp . . .

 

And what looks to me like a Lister 'D' just back of the mast.  For driving a pump?  Or a mixer?

 

N

[Ray T]

26 minutes ago, BEngo said:

And what looks to me like a Lister 'D' just back of the mast.  For driving a pump?  Or a mixer?

 

N

 

From CRT Archive: https://collections.canalrivertrust.org.uk/bw200.1.72.35

 

[John Brightley]

22 hours ago, David Mack said:

Do you have a date for that picture, Ray? The cottage on the left is long gone now, but that on the right survives.

 

21 hours ago, Ray T said:

I would hazard a guess in the 1950's, don't know for sure.

I'm fairly certain that the small sailing yacht in the photo is Hugh McKnight's 'Dorymouse', and I think the photo was taken by Hugh. If this is the case it will date to the mid-1960's.

[Kingsford]

On 11/12/2015 at 14:25, magpie patrick said:

Finally, for this post at least, the sharp eyed may have noticed a bywash on the left of the first picture - this is the other end of it, to the right of this picture.

 

 

Another quick question, do we know where south of the two locks the outlet is for the water that goes over the bywash/overflow/waste weir?

[magpie patrick]

5 hours ago, Kingsford said:

 

Another quick question, do we know where south of the two locks the outlet is for the water that goes over the bywash/overflow/waste weir?

 It's in the picture you show in your quote, but not obvious! There's a bit of a gap in the vegetation which shows where the outfall is 

[Kingsford]

Ah, yes, I see. I completely misread the post; happens to the best of us.😅

[Mike Todd]

Was Duke's Cut Lock 44A originally a stop lock with 4 gates?

[magpie patrick]

28 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

Was Duke's Cut Lock 44A originally a stop lock with 4 gates?

 

Yes, in as far as it allowed locking down into the Thames as well as locking up. At some point water level management ensured that levels in the Thames never fell below the canal level.

 

Firepool lock in Taunton was similar 

[Mike Todd]

23 hours ago, magpie patrick said:

 

Yes, in as far as it allowed locking down into the Thames as well as locking up. At some point water level management ensured that levels in the Thames never fell below the canal level.

 

Firepool lock in Taunton was similar 

Thanks - I only really noticed the extra niches when we came through less than a month ago. I wondered about their purpose at the time but failed to discover anything online!

[Mike Todd]

On 20/05/2023 at 13:37, magpie patrick said:

 

Yes, in as far as it allowed locking down into the Thames as well as locking up. At some point water level management ensured that levels in the Thames never fell below the canal level.

 

Firepool lock in Taunton was similar 

Was that be the result of building King's Lock in 1928?