Desperately in Need of Some Alternator Help, please

[OldGoat]

That really is a 'mean' installation!

Although maybe a bit of a rats' nest - it shows what's necessary to get generating power out of a small boat engine.

Observe the very small poly-V pulleys - you can't do that with a simple v-belt.

Also the range of attachment points for all the arms - you can't do that (somebody will say you can...) with an automotive engine.

[nicknorman]

That really is a 'mean' installation!

Although maybe a bit of a rats' nest - it shows what's necessary to get generating power out of a small boat engine.

Observe the very small poly-V pulleys - you can't do that with a simple v-belt.

Also the range of attachment points for all the arms - you can't do that (somebody will say you can...) with an automotive engine.

Yup it's a good installation. This is why I get 160A or so at idle (850rpm) and the full 175A by about 950rpm. That does however represent quite a load on an idling engine and it doesn't sound happy doing that (at idle) so I try to keep the revs above 1000 if the alternator or Travelpower are working hard. 175A at 13v = 2.2kw + 3.5kw from the Travelpower = 5.7kw which is getting on for 8 horsepower.

 

There have been some issues with the side loads on the engine pulleys wearing the crankshaft taper resulting in the pulley coming loose, but I think (hope!) that on later engines such as ours, that problem was resolved.

[bottle]

I think BSPs engine is the 3 cylinder version of the Kubota 03 series engine, so the front end should be the same as your Beta 43.

Can you repost that picture of your engine (when new) as the Beta brackets could well fit BSPs engine.

Still useful at 500 miles away?

Steve (Eeyore)

 

Sorry to be a wet blanket but if it is a three cylinder the layout will be different.

 

Have a look at Beta marine website, if it is another marinisation then it could be different again.

 

Example of one of the thee cylinder engines from Beta.

 

PF document: http://betamarine.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/downloads/inland_guidelines/beta30_kc_drawings/Beta30_KC_PRM120_100_05648.pdf

[kevinl]

Just buy a belt the same spec but slightly shorter, it may be the wrong one was used in the past by mistake or in an emergency. At least check it's the right belt and you're not copying from a historic mistake when you've replaced it. The tension should be the correct tension, too tight will damage the bearings and may possibly make the alternator overheat.

As suggested the belt spray is good but it doesn't work for that long.

K

[bizzard]

BSP's engine is almost certainly an Isuzu being an ex Black Prince boat.

[BlueStringPudding]

Just a reminder which I may have not made clear in my opening post (since three separate people have now told me to just replace the belt) - the alternator doesn't move on the bracket. It does not slide left and right more than 3mm (maybe 5 at the most) because of poor design of the bracket and mounting system. This means it is not straightforward to replace the fan belt unless with one that is too long and therefore too loose to efficiently turn the the alternator

 

I don't know why the shorter fan belt (which was originally painstakingly pulled into place by someone much stronger than me) can no longer be put back on. He just said it can't which is why there is a fanbelt on it that's much too long and now my new batteries have found themselves between 9%-20% capacity and a mere 11.97v. My toilet doesn't flush and the sockets are intermittently not working so I am rather desperate here.

 

Thanks for the advice about how to replace a fan belt everyone who's told me, your advice is much appreciated but I do know how to do it. However it cannot be done in the normal way on an alternator that effectively cannot slide. And there be me problem.

 

 

Bizzard - only later Black Prince boats were fitted with teensy snazzy Isuzu engines. Mine is the 3 cylinder Kubota.

Edited November 21, 2015 by BlueStringPudding

[bizzard]

Just a reminder which I may have not made clear in my opening post (since three separate people have now told me to just replace the belt) - the alternator doesn't move on the bracket. It does not slide left and right more than 3mm (maybe 5 at the most) because of poor design of the bracket and mounting system. This means it is not straightforward to replace the fan belt unless with one that is too long and therefore too loose to efficiently turn the the alternator

 

I don't know why the shorter fan belt (which was originally painstakingly pulled into place by someone much stronger than me can no longer be put back on. He just said it can't which is why there is a fanbelt on it that's much too long and now my new batteries are at just 25% capacity.

 

Thanks for the advice about how to replace a fan belt everyone, but I do know how to do it. However it cannot be done in the normal way on an alternator that effectively cannot slide.

 

 

 

Bizzard - only later Black Prince boats were fitted with Isuzu engines. Mine is the 3 cylinder Kubota.

Ah okay. Depending on how loose this larger belt is. It would be possible to bind it all around with something like the old fashioned cloth type insulating tape to make its diameter smaller to take out the slackness and make it grip. This would get you out of trouble for the time being, probably long enough to get your batteries charged anyway. I'm just trying to think of another suitable sticky tape that would do the job because I doubt if that old cloth tape can be got anymore.

[bizzard]

Ah okay. Depending on how loose this larger belt is. It would be possible to bind it all around with something like the old fashioned cloth type insulating tape to make its diameter smaller to take out the slackness and make it grip. This would get you out of trouble for the time being, probably long enough to get your batteries charged anyway. I'm just trying to think of another suitable sticky tape that would do the job because I doubt if that old cloth tape can be got anymore.

I have another idea, you might laugh though. 'The human tensioner'. That is, to put the slack belt on and find something with a roller with a handle on it,''like a Pizza cutter or paint roller, something with a wideish roller on it and decent bearing, even a small rolling pin with revolving handles. By squatting next to the engine while its running push this roller up against the slack outer side of the belt to keep it tensioned and so make it Grrrip. Keep a steady push on it all the time until the batteries are charged up. The engine will keep you warm. Hope this helps.

[bizzard]

Ah okay. Depending on how loose this larger belt is. It would be possible to bind it all around with something like the old fashioned cloth type insulating tape to make its diameter smaller to take out the slackness and make it grip. This would get you out of trouble for the time being, probably long enough to get your batteries charged anyway. I'm just trying to think of another suitable sticky tape that would do the job because I doubt if that old cloth tape can be got anymore.

Although a bit shiny the fabric type of Gaffa tape would do this, seriously.

[MtB]

I have another idea, you might laugh though. 'The human tensioner'. That is, to put the slack belt on and find something with a roller with a handle on it,''like a Pizza cutter or paint roller, something with a wideish roller on it and decent bearing, even a small rolling pin with revolving handles. By squatting next to the engine while its running push this roller up against the slack outer side of the belt to keep it tensioned and so make it Grrrip. Keep a steady push on it all the time until the batteries are charged up. The engine will keep you warm. Hope this helps.

 

 

Or, blag the loan of a portable genny from a neighbour, or someone on here.

 

Or just buy one from Screwifx! £189.

 

I have one and it works fine.

[bizzard]

 

 

Or, blag the loan of a portable genny from a neighbour, or someone on here.

 

Or just buy one from Screwifx! £189.

 

I have one and it works fine.

A bit dearer than a good quality rolling pin though. The old fashioned fabric insulating tape wrapped tightly all around works well, I've done it once at sea to get me out of trouble and it did the job superbly until I got shipwrecked on Canvey point.

[MtB]

A bit dearer than a good quality rolling pin though. The old fashioned fabric insulating tape wrapped tightly all around works well, I've done it once at sea to get me out of trouble and it did the job superbly until I got shipwrecked on Canvey point.

 

 

Racing bike handlebar tape is/was very similar to cloth insulating tape, if it's still available. Which I doubt...

Edit to add:

 

Turns out I'm wrong!!

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Cloth-Road-Racing-Bike-Drop-Handlebar-Tape-Retro-Vintage-Velox-Tressorex-NEW-/371192693285?var=&hash=item566ccf0225:m:m4NTWzBK24pFN9hRSjGnqFQ

[tree monkey]

It was myself who originally fitted the tighter belt and it took much swearing and skinned knuckles, the bloody thing came off because the bottom bolt holding the alternator snapped

I replaced the bolt and no way could I fit the "original" belt, so resorted to the older slightly longer belt.

practicality speaking there is no real adjustment space and this needs resolving and as I am your man for taking down your trees plus general tree based advice but limited in engine fettling skills over to you lot

[MtB]

And not only that,but here is cloth insulating tape.

 

"Tessa Tape". You'll remember that name!

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-TESA-TAPE-51608-ADHESIVE-CLOTH-FABRIC-WIRING-LOOM-HARNESS-15M-x-19mm-15mm-9-/251808817142?var=&hash=item3aa0f99ff6:m:m4kz_HIB8U6wM-GSXDeSi4g

[Paul C]

Thanks for the advice. Sounds like a good back up plan. I'm wary of anything that could possibly draw power from the starter battery though because about three weeks ago while I was away, a chap who came to my boat to do some work on it ran the engine and when turning in off left the ignition on. It was like that for two days before I returned home. So the starter battery is also not such a happy bunny. it's how come my attention was drawn to the low battery capacity on the domestics in the first place (not that leaving the ignition on for two days ought to have affected the domestics)

 

Should be a non-issue, if the engine/start alternator is spinning then it will put the voltage above that of an at-rest battery even if its been flattened and recharged, so the engine/start battery shouldn't be able to drag down the domestics. I am assuming its not so knackered that it can still start the motor?

[bizzard]

Even a luggage fabric covered elastic shock cord with a hook at either end would do it. Stretched around the pulley's and hooked up. The hooks could be squeezed up when hooked together and taped over to prevent high speed clicking noises when they pass over pulley's. This would be the simplest method.

[bottle]

BSP

 

Shoot me down and if you have already done this double shoot me.

 

Have you loosened the sliding bracket at the engine end, just enough so that the bracket will rotate with some pressure on it.

 

I am clutching at straws.

Edited November 21, 2015 by bottle

[ditchcrawler]

I am just wondering how much swing there is on the alternator with no belt on.

[bottle]

and with the bolt/nut removed from alternator at the slide bracket.

[bizzard]

So the alternator won't move inwards anymore because it hits the engine. Would it move outwards though if the adjusting bracket was a bit longer?. If so the adjusting bracket slot and the fixing hole on the other end could be filed outwards a bit to give it more outwards adjustment. There is usually enough meat on the ends of those brackets to do this, to lengthen both slot and hole by about 4 or 5mm combined which might be enough to tighten the longer belt. With a small round file this doesn't take very long, I've done it more than once for similar things. Ideally the bracket needs holding in a vice whilst filing, but it could be clamped to something with a G clamp or Mole grips, but can be done by holding firmly in the hand. Remove the bracket and sit in front of the Telly filing. Or even disconnect the adjustment bracket for now and knock in a wedge of wood behind the alternator to keep the longer belt tight.

So many delightful and attractive botches to fix this problem, pro-tem.

Edited November 21, 2015 by bizzard

[OldGoat]

Yup it's a good installation. This is why I get 160A or so at idle (850rpm) and the full 175A by about 950rpm. That does however represent quite a load on an idling engine and it doesn't sound happy doing that (at idle) so I try to keep the revs above 1000 if the alternator or Travelpower are working hard. 175A at 13v = 2.2kw + 3.5kw from the Travelpower = 5.7kw which is getting on for 8 horsepower.

 

There have been some issues with the side loads on the engine pulleys wearing the crankshaft taper resulting in the pulley coming loose, but I think (hope!) that on later engines such as ours, that problem was resolved.

 

For those who haven't researched previous threads on this subject -

 

older Beta engines (I don't know what applies to other makes / modifications ) relied on the alternator pulley drive to run other alternators, the keyway on which was not solid enough to drive larger alternators (however mine lasted for 10 years with even larger alternators than yours).

Later versions - and this is what you have - use the PTO spline on the front of the crankshaft to take the loads.

 

Even so It's important for others to note that Beta say do NOT charge your batteries at base engine tickover, but increase it to say (1100 rpm) as the engine runs smoother at that speed - there's less engine chatter at those speeds.

[ditchcrawler]

and with the bolt/nut removed from alternator at the slide bracket.

Both actually. I am just wondering if someone has fitted a shorter belt at some time and since then its been a like for like replacement .

[cuthound]

And not only that,but here is cloth insulating tape.

 

"Tessa Tape". You'll remember that name!

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-TESA-TAPE-51608-ADHESIVE-CLOTH-FABRIC-WIRING-LOOM-HARNESS-15M-x-19mm-15mm-9-/251808817142?var=&hash=item3aa0f99ff6:m:m4kz_HIB8U6wM-GSXDeSi4g

Shouldn't that be Tesla tape

 

For the non technical, the attached link explains:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Tesla

 

Edited to remove a letter pretending to be a space.

Edited November 21, 2015 by cuthound

[tree monkey]

Both actually. I am just wondering if someone has fitted a shorter belt at some time and since then its been a like for like replacement .

I fitted a shorter belt previously because of the one fitted as a new replacement, like for like, continued to slip.

Unfortunately it was an absolutely sod of a job and for some reason I have been unable to fit the shorter one again.

There is simply not enough space for adjustment

[GUMPY]

Just spoken to a friend who has an ex-BP boat with 3cyl kubota and his view is that there is plenty of adjustment on his so something must be physically wrong with your setup.

Another tip was that if the belt is the correct size but worn it will sit to low in the alternator pulley and slip.

Two ways to cure this;

1. Get a new belt.

2. Wrap a decent size elastic band round the alternator pulley this provides extra grip and prevents slip.

 

Just a thought from me when trying to adjust the belt you are loosening all the bolts on the alternator/adjuster bar not just the one on the adjuster bar?