Narrow Boat World Article About Our Incident at Hillmorton on 25th August

[tidal]

I would like to see this in the Boater's Handbook and regarded as standard practice if anything appears to be going wrong in a lock. I learned about this on my first canal holiday.

That is something I would like to see too

VLKs aren't the only ones who could benefit from learning this primary rule

[Tecka]

I think this thread is getting somewhat sidetracked by the "who's in charge" debate.

The bottom line is not who is change but simply that if anyone involved, crew or lockeeper, calls out that there is a problem any sensible person would and should close the paddles while the situation is assessed. The worst that could happen is that a few minutes are lost while the best is that a boat could be saved. Not a difficult equation.

 

Yes, exactly. You're obviously a better word smith than myself as this is what I've meant to say all along (and I do accept I've been pulled into / may even have started the who's in charge debate )

[alan_fincher]

This may be partly down to my relative newness to this, if so please accept my apology and also my heartfelt wish that no one discussing this ever needs to find out the hard way.

 

I don't think you need to be concerned about "newness". Your comments have all been well made, and I'm grateful for your input.

 

Fortunately very bad things happen at locks only rarely, and usually potentially very bad situations get recovered before they escalate into something far more serious. (As was the case with us).

 

However it is very clear that every year cillings (most commonly) and getting caught on other parts of the lock structure (more rarely) cause a number of sinkings in locks, even if nobody is physically harmed. I am not yet aware of any happening where a volunteer lock keeper was involved in the lock operation, but with an ever increasing number of locks with VLKs in attendance, often the most used locks about, there would seem to be a very good statistical chance that at some point it will happen. I would suggest that it will be highly embarrassing (at least) for CRT if it could be demonstrated that inadequate training, or a VLK ignoring or overruling the crews instructions had contributed to the incident.

 

This is why we have felt thoughout that it is correct to continue to pursue the matter, not because of any kind of witch hunt, which we have no interest in at all, but because if matters continue without better rules, training and control eventually something far more serious could happen. On that point, at least, I accept that Allan Richards and I probably agree!

[mango]

Avoidance of it happening again can be achieved in one of two ways. Either stop using VLK's to assist/help boaters and divert them into other activities that benefit the waterways or ensure that they are given sufficient training to recognise emergency situations and act appropriately.

You could equally say that every boater should have this training. Not just hire boaters but the friends and family that may be helping the most experienced boat owner.

 

I very much appreciate the efforts of volunteer lock keepers and so far I have had no problems. I'm surprised that they do volunteer given some of the abuse they occasionally receive from boaters.

[Higgs]

 

And that is a BIG assumption!

 

Being single handed most of the time, I will normally be on the lockside, operating the paddles and controlling the boat with rope(s). From the lockside I can keep a watch that the boat is floating freely, not creeping too far forwards or back, and so on....

 

When I work through a lock with a VLK, they invariably suggest I stay on the boat while they operate paddles and close/open the gates.

 

Thus when I first heard of Alan's incident, I imagined myself in his position, but with no crew of my own on the lockside and myself at the tiller, there would not have even been a warning shout from the crew member. I would have been entirely in the hands of the VLK to decide whether the boat was actually getting hung up or it was going to "sort itself out".

 

It is inconsideration of this that I feel in a quandry about how to treat the VLK. If he/she is only there to advise, guide and assist, can I rely on their eyes, ears and boating knowledge to realise a problem is developing? Because if not, I would want to make sure that my eyes and ears are on the lockside, not at the tiller, unable to see a problem and shout an instruction to the VLK, let alone even reach a paddle if I wanted to.

 

If when CRT do respond to Alan's incident report, I will be looking closely to see if the instructions they give to VLKs cover the specific situation of a single handed boat.

 

 

No, would be my natural inclination. If the VLK's position is one of advice, I'm not going to close my ears. However, the control of the boat is mine and I'd stay in control and stop any actions, if needed.

[mango]

That is something I would like to see too

VLKs aren't the only ones who could benefit from learning this primary rule

I would add 'Close all paddles in emergency' to the notice about keeping forward of the cill.

[Paul C]

 

 

 

The author did not know where we are with CRT on the matter at the time the article was posted, and it is my personal judgement that he has now reduced rather than increased the chances of a satisfactory outcome. Of course I can't prove that, but I feel I was justified in starting this thread to make it very clear we had no part in the article.

 

Alan I'm struggling with this bit: the outcome of the accident/investigation/whatever, I think we all agree, should be the "right thing" - why would this outcome alter depending on whether it was kept private or whether it was partially in the public domain? What, to you, is a satisfactory outcome?

 

Compare it with air accidents - the AAIB or whatever the equivalent national department, do a thorough investigation which takes months or years; but the newspapers and media are all over the site in the first few days of a crash and as soon as something tangible appears, they'll have an "expert" appear offering a speculative opinion on what occurred. It goes further - whole documentaries have been made, involving open investigations. The AAIB doesn't watch the telly and start editing large lumps of their report, their information and techniques are far above the level in the public domain.

[NilesMI]

I think this thread is getting somewhat sidetracked by the "who's in charge" debate.

The bottom line is not who is in change but simply that if anyone involved, crew or lockeeper, calls out that there is a problem any sensible person would and should close the paddles while the situation is assessed.

 

You may have cross-posted with me, but I suggest that there is the particular situation of a single handed boat, where if the boater is at the tiller and not on the lockside, it really doen't matter who's in charge because only the VLK has the ability to see whether the boat is about to get hung up or not.

 

Otherwise, yes. Any instruction to close the paddles should be acted on immediately rather than being questioned. Same would apply if the VLK shouted that instruction to a member of the boat's crew or another VLK. The reason for the instruction can be discussed at leisure, after the water stops rising/falling.

 

 

No, would be my natural inclination. If the VLK's position is one of advice, I'm not going to close my ears. However, the control of the boat is mine and I'd stay in control and stop any actions, if needed.

 

I concurr with that.

 

Therefore I would expect any instructions to VLKs should include that they do not suggest that a single hander remains on their boat, but that they retain control of it, by using ropes on the lockside.

[bassplayer]

I think this thread is getting somewhat sidetracked by the "who's in charge" debate.

The bottom line is not who is in change but simply that if anyone involved, crew or lockeeper, calls out that there is a problem any sensible person would and should close the paddles while the situation is assessed. The worst that could happen is that a few minutes are lost while the best is that a boat could be saved. Not a difficult equation.

 

Edit to add - That is what CRT should be teaching their staff and volunteers.

I kind of agree with this. If I'm driving a car or boat I'm grateful for an extra pair of eyes and if someone shouts out a problem, it's up to me at the controls to do something about it. In any event, closing paddles is unlikely to ever create or cause a problem so it is a bit of a no brainer if there is a potential problem.

 

I'm not sure why Alan's boat hung in the first place though. That to me is just as worrying and it would be good to know how this happened.

 

This has reminded me of something else to mention. When I first started boating I was told that when going down in locks solo, you could leave the boat in forward gear to keep the boat forward of the cill. This ultimately means tbe bow is putting pressure on tne gates all of tbe time. Since my experience of getting hung by a gate I have never done this and always try to keep the front of the boat off the gate.

Edited October 31, 2015 by bassplayer

[ditchcrawler]

If they are not at the tiller (controls) they are not the skipper at that moment in time. Responsibility and the controls are passed to whoever has taken over. Put it another way, who has the control to prevent the boat hanging on a gate?

 

The owner of the boat who has to live with the consequences of losing their boat is another thing.

I am often on the lock side while our boat is going up or down in a lock as is my wife. No one on board. As this incident proves, the only people who can take action in that sort of emergency are those by the lock with windlasses. The volocky at Fradley was not impressed because I was not on the boat while he did the lock.

[billS]

The volocky at Fradley was not impressed because I was not on the boat while he did the lock.

 

That doesn't matter. It's your boat, your lock and your rules.

[NilesMI]

The volocky at Fradley was not impressed because I was not on the boat while he did the lock.

 

What did he/she actually say to you about remaining on your boat?

 

I use Fradley locks regularly and the VLKs there habitually suggest I remain on the boat. Prior to hearing about Alan's incident, I have been happy to do that. If as now seems to be the case, the VLK is only there to assist and won't be responsible for any incidents, I will be making sure I'm on the lockside, where I belong, and not on the boat, in future.

 

What incoming flak can I expect?

[Higgs]

I am often on the lock side while our boat is going up or down in a lock as is my wife. No one on board. As this incident proves, the only people who can take action in that sort of emergency are those by the lock with windlasses. The volocky at Fradley was not impressed because I was not on the boat while he did the lock.

 

 

Consider the lockie to be an assistant. You need to be there, ready with your windlass. If you happen to come across a bad lockie and you're stuck on the boat in the lock, your hands are a bit tied.

[NilesMI]

Consider the lockie to be an assistant.

 

Maybe the job title needs revision. "Lock-keeper" suggests a level of competence and responsibility beyond merely advise/assist.

 

"Volunteer Boaters' Assistant" ?

[bassplayer]

 

 

Consider the lockie to be an assistant. You need to be there, ready with your windlass. If you happen to come across a bad lockie and you're stuck on the boat in the lock, your hands are a bit tied.

But shouldn't it be about preventing the hang up in the first place. It's harder to keep the boat off the cill and gates if you're up a ladder. The best way to keep the boat in the right position is with the engine. I don't think you can blame the lockie for the hang up, maybe bad positioning or poorly maintained gate.

[ditchcrawler]

 

That doesn't matter. It's your boat, your lock and your rules.

Your right. He said "singlle handing you stay on the boat" Diana had walked down to the next lock, I said "No I dont"

 

What did he/she actually say to you about remaining on your boat?

 

I use Fradley locks regularly and the VLKs there habitually suggest I remain on the boat. Prior to hearing about Alan's incident, I have been happy to do that. If as now seems to be the case, the VLK is only there to assist and won't be responsible for any incidents, I will be making sure I'm on the lockside, where I belong, and not on the boat, in future.

 

What incoming flak can I expect?

Replied elsewhere

[Ray T]

But shouldn't it be about preventing the hang up in the first place. It's harder to keep the boat off the cill and gates if you're up a ladder. The best way to keep the boat in the right position is with the engine. I don't think you can blame the lockie for the hang up, maybe bad positioning or poorly maintained gate.

 

I know this is getting away from the original debate, but, our boat is 45ft, therefore liable to drift around in locks. I usually strap the boat to one of the posts available to stop the boat from touching either top or bottom gates. I know this is more difficult with longer boats, but, the working boat people in days of yore managed it - using the strapping posts available.

Edited October 31, 2015 by Ray T

[alan_fincher]

I'm not sure why Alan's boat hung in the first place though. That to me is just as worrying and it would be good to know how this happened.

 

Explanation taken from when I first described the incident......

 

 

Once the lock was refilled we tried again, and exactly the same started to happen. This time the paddle was dropped leaving the boat hung long enough for me to climb off, to see what was causing it. The stem of Flamingo was wedged to the left of a large nut on the rubbing plate of the left hand gate, jamming the boat against the wall. As we started to refill the lock you could see the stem start to slip past the bolt, before it fell free.

 

It is also necessary to understand that with a full length working boat it is usual practice to lift the front fender and allow the stem of the boat to rub against the rubbing plates on the bottom gates, in order to stay away from the cill at the rear. (There is very little spare space in a lock where wven without fenders the boat is 71 feet 6 inches.)

 

I am now aware of at least two other working boats of a similar type to Flamingo that have hung on obstructions on the bottom gates of Hillmorton locks, but have only found this out subsequent to our incident.

 

Needless to say when we have recently been through there again somebody is deployed with a rope to actually keep the stem of the boat away from the offending hexagonal nut, whilst the paddles are opened in a very controlled manner

[Higgs]

But shouldn't it be about preventing the hang up in the first place. It's harder to keep the boat off the cill and gates if you're up a ladder. The best way to keep the boat in the right position is with the engine. I don't think you can blame the lockie for the hang up, maybe bad positioning or poorly maintained gate.

 

 

If the paddles are opened gently in small increments, the boat can remain fairly settled. Fairly easy to react to movement of the boat by using the ropes. I do not react very kindly to people throwing the paddles full open.

[alan_fincher]

 

I know this is getting away from the original debate, but, our boat is 45ft, therefore liable to drift around in locks. I usually strap the boat to one of the posts available to stop the boat from touching either top or bottom gates. I know this slightly more difficult with longer boats, but, the working boat people in days of yore managed it - using the strapping posts available.

 

No that is completely wrong, I'm afraid.

 

There is no way working boat people would have tried to keep the boat away from the bottom gates.

 

They would, as standard practice, allowed the boats to bear forward onto them, and, depending on circumstances maybe well have left them with forward gear engaged to ensure they stayed put.

 

Almost certainly this was fully understood by those building lock gates in those days, and I'm fairly certain, (though maybe Tony will correct me!), that any bolts used to attach rubbing plates to the gate would have had a smooth domed side on the inside of the gates, and any protruding hexagonal nut on the outside, where it could cause no issues.

 

I that had been the case at this particular lock, then the boat would have slid down the plates that exist for that very purpose, and could not have got caught had there only been the slight dome of a coach bolt head.

[alan_fincher]

I don't think you can blame the lockie for the hang up,......

 

Correct - you can neither blame the lockie nor the boat crew for this hang - all were operating in the expected manner up until the point it occurred, and that was not disputed by anybody who was actually present. For the hanging you could blame the person either designing gates with significant obstructions on them, (or maybe the person who just installed some bolts the wrong way round to what the designer intended?).

 

The issue, as some people seem to be consistently failing to grasp, is not that the boat became hung, but the lock keepers reluctance to accept that it was occurring (despite massive visible evidence), and the fact he would not take the requested action of dropping the paddle until things had got to a pretty critical position. (In my estimation we were pretty close to a far worse outcome, but it all happened too fast for me to say with great precision just how close).

 

If anybody had taken a picture, I think many contributing here would be genuinely shocked by how far down the back end of the boat was compared to the front.

[bassplayer]

Explanation taken from when I first described the incident......

 

 

 

It is also necessary to understand that with a full length working boat it is usual practice to lift the front fender and allow the stem of the boat to rub against the rubbing plates on the bottom gates, in order to stay away from the cill at the rear. (There is very little spare space in a lock where wven without fenders the boat is 71 feet 6 inches.)

 

 

Were the fenders lifted when the initial incident occurred Alan? Just wondered if it was the stem which jammed or the fender.

[Ray T]

 

No that is completely wrong, I'm afraid.

 

There is no way working boat people would have tried to keep the boat away from the bottom gates.

 

They would, as standard practice, allowed the boats to bear forward onto them, and, depending on circumstances maybe well have left them with forward gear engaged to ensure they stayed put.

 

Almost certainly this was fully understood by those building lock gates in those days, and I'm fairly certain, (though maybe Tony will correct me!), that any bolts used to attach rubbing plates to the gate would have had a smooth domed side on the inside of the gates, and any protruding hexagonal nut on the outside, where it could cause no issues.

 

I that had been the case at this particular lock, then the boat would have slid down the plates that exist for that very purpose, and could not have got caught had there only been the slight dome of a coach bolt head.

 

Alan I based my comment on watching the Beresford Brothers ascending the GU locks from the film Inland Waterways 1950. Whilst filling the locks one of the brothers is keeping the butty strapped at about 16 mins 51 secs in, until the lock is about half full. I have just remembered you were descending.

 

 

 

Edited October 31, 2015 by Ray T

[Graham.m]

 

Correct - you can neither blame the lockie nor the boat crew for this hang - all were operating in the expected manner up until the point it occurred, and that was not disputed by anybody who was actually present. For the hanging you could blame the person either designing gates with significant obstructions on them, (or maybe the person who just installed some bolts the wrong way round to what the designer intended?).

 

The issue, as some people seem to be consistently failing to grasp, is not that the boat became hung, but the lock keepers reluctance to accept that it was occurring (despite massive visible evidence), and the fact he would not take the requested action of dropping the paddle until things had got to a pretty critical position. (In my estimation we were pretty close to a far worse outcome, but it all happened too fast for me to say with great precision just how close).

 

If anybody had taken a picture, I think many contributing here would be genuinely shocked by how far down the back end of the boat was compared to the front.

 

Just had thought was this Volockie used to boats catching on the nut and dropping off. Hence his remark about it sorting itself out.

Edited October 31, 2015 by Graham.m

[MtB]

 

Just had thought was this Volockie used to boats catching on the nut and dropping off. Hence his remark about it sorting itself out.

 

 

Good point. BUT...

 

If he knew it regularly happens, he should have warned the crew of a 71ft 6in boat it was likely to happen.