Narrow Boat World Article About Our Incident at Hillmorton on 25th August

[Richard Fairhurst]

This forum, or any other is not "public domain". It is copyright.

Public domain has a specific meaning and it means generally information that can not be covered by copyright such as names and addresses.

 

Not quite.

 

"Public domain" in the American English sense means "free of copyright". This usage has gained widespread worldwide popularity through the open source software movement.

 

"In the public domain" is a British English phrase used to mean that something is not a secret.

 

Information published on this forum can therefore be said to be in the public domain, though each posting is the copyright of its author.

 

For what it's worth, England & Wales copyright law does not have an explicit concept of "public domain", hence the existence of legal tools such as CC0 and PDDL to allow people to effectively renounce the copyright in their works. Collections of names and addresses can actually be copyrightable in the UK, but that's another question and an exceptionally complex one.

[mark99]

 

I would suggest that the most effective way of getting CRT to give the overall matter the attention it undoubtedly deserves would be if every incident that was serious, (or potentially serious), were formally reported to them. However this is unlikely to happen, as several have indicated to me they would not do so, leaving CRT unaware that their incident has occurred.

 

 

I think most (incl. me) "put it down to experience" and cast a very critical eye on the the next person wielding a windlass in the name of CaRT volunteer.

Edited October 30, 2015 by mark99

[MtB]

It's certainly not crystal clear in the RA as Tecka claims.

 

It does not seem to be explicitly stated in CaRT's induction presentation either.

 

It is a bit of a tricky area which seems to be sidestepped by talking about giving help and advice (mandatory in some cases) and dealing with inappropriate behavior.

 

 

 

 

This makes me wonder if as a resutl of his training, the VLK perceived the shouted instruction to drop the paddles less as an instruction and more as inappropriate behaviour to be dealt with...

[NilesMI]

 

Seems clear to me, as always though - In my opinion, others are entitled to be held.

 

Thanks, Tecka. What you have quoted sounds clear.

 

But it's a statement in a risk assessment, not an instruction to VLKs. In an ideal world there should be no mismatch between the two, but... it would not be the first kind of mismatch to only become apparent in the aftermath of a serious incident.

[MtB]

(For the avoidance of doubt, I'm not saying I think shouting "Drop the paddles" is inappropriate behaviour.)

[RLWP]

(For the avoidance of doubt, I'm not saying I think shouting "Drop the paddles" is inappropriate behaviour.)

 

Bet I can make it inappropriate

 

Richard

[nicknorman]

whether all the unpleasantness that has accompanied doing so will end up being worthwhile.

Could you clarify the nature of this unpleasantness. Is it coming from CRT, or just from the publicity on here etc?

[RLWP]

just from the publicity on here etc?

 

Isn't that enough?

 

Richard

[nicknorman]

Isn't that enough?

 

Richard

Depends on one's resilience, but the point is whether Alan feels he is getting any grief from CRT?

[Tecka]

But it's a statement in a risk assessment, not an instruction to VLKs. In an ideal world there should be no mismatch between the two, but... it would not be the first kind of mismatch to only become apparent in the aftermath of a serious incident.

 

 

Good point, so CaRT need to make sure VLK know that boaters are in charge as it's our personal safety (financial considerations aside) that is most at risk. If they have written it in black and white then surely they believe it

[Athy]

noddyesque , grizzle . Unbelievable !!!

Yes, it's admirable to see such imaginative use of language.

[bassplayer]

I think most of us agree the skipper is in charge and responsible for their boat at all times. OK, maybe I'm playing devils advocate but is it possible a lockie, not knowing how experienced the crew of the boat is, might only consider commands from the skipper as being valid?

 

I was wondering how it got hung in the first place. I had my bow hung once whist ascending a lock, it was pretty scary so I always try to keep the bow off the gates now. I also made sure my fenders were off when going through the 56ft Huddersfield wide locks for the same reason. Hindsight is a wonderful thing isn't it?

[Allan(nb Albert)]

This makes me wonder if as a resutl of his training, the VLK perceived the shouted instruction to drop the paddles less as an instruction and more as inappropriate behaviour to be dealt with...

He may well have deemed the command as inappropriate behaviour because it was not given by the skipper ...

 

Certainly, the training documents suggest that paddles should only be lifted on the skippers command.

[Jerra]

OK, maybe I'm playing devils advocate but is it possible a lockie, not knowing how experienced the crew of the boat is, might only consider commands from the skipper as being valid?

How are they supposed to know who the skipper is?

[bassplayer]

How are they supposed to know who the skipper is?

Isn't it the person who is in command of the vessel? Whoever is at the tiller. If solo, it might the guy pulling the boat with a rope of course.

[Jerra]

Isn't it the person who is in command of the vessel? Whoever is at the tiller. If solo, it might the guy pulling the boat with a rope of course.

Obviously it is whoever is in command of the vessel but they may not be at the tiller. I skipper but also I always work the locks.

[bassplayer]

Obviously it is whoever is in command of the vessel but they may not be at the tiller. I skipper but also I always work the locks.

If they are not at the tiller (controls) they are not the skipper at that moment in time. Responsibility and the controls are passed to whoever has taken over. Put it another way, who has the control to prevent the boat hanging on a gate?

 

The owner of the boat who has to live with the consequences of losing their boat is another thing.

[nicknorman]

If they are not at the tiller (controls) they are not the skipper at that moment in time. Responsibility and the controls are passed to whoever has taken over. Put it another way, who has the control to prevent the boat hanging on a gate?

The owner of the boat who has to live with the consequences of losing their boat is another thing.

I disagree completely. The captain of a ship is not the guy who is operating the steering wheel. When I am in command of an aeroplane, helicopter or glider, I may or may not be the pilot flying, but I am definitely in charge. Edited October 31, 2015 by nicknorman

[bassplayer]

I disagree completely. The captain of a ship is not the guy who is operating the steering wheel. When I am captain of an aeroplane or helicopter, I may or may not be the pilot flying, but I am definitely in charge.

...and I thought you flew planes How would you avoid a collision if you're having a pee?

 

The person in charge (or is responsible for the vessel or aircraft i.e captain) isn't always the same person who has direct control (skipper or pilot). Anyway I think it's academic if Alan was at the controls...

[Iain_S]

(snip)

Put it another way, who has the control to prevent the boat hanging on a gate?

 

(snip)

 

Once the boat is hung up, probably only the person on the paddle.

[Tony Dunkley]

I suggest that what has now grown into 8 pages of consideration and discussion of minor and incidental details can be condensed into one simple question, and that is : ~

 

Do C&RT intend to continue exposing boaters to the risks that inevitably arise from authorizing volunteers, who are apparently incapable of seeing that a boat only a few feet away from where they're standing is seriously hung up, to involve themselves in the operation of locks?

Edited October 31, 2015 by Tony Dunkley

[bassplayer]

Once the boat is hung up, probably only the person on the paddle.

Well yes, once it's too late what else can the skipper do? Maybe wack it in reverse, but I'd certainly be shouting to the guy(s) on the paddle. As I said, it's a scary experience and I wouldn't want that to happen to me again.

 

It does bring up the thought as to how important it is that anyone controlling a boat understands how to avoid this situation and get out of it if it does get hung. In the end it's about learning from the experience, not hanging out dirty washing.

[bassplayer]

...who are apparently incapable of seeing that a boat only a few feet away from where they're standing is seriously hung up...

...but did the lockie believe it was 'seriously hung up'? As I said , hopefully we will all learn from this. The lockie concerned hasn't been able to defend himself here. I do know someone who knew the lockie very well though! Sadly they decided they no longer wanted to take part in this forum anymore due to the wolf hunt...

[Tony Dunkley]

...but did the lockie believe it was 'seriously hung up'? As I said , hopefully we will all learn from this. The lockie concerned hasn't been able to defend himself here. I do know someone who knew the lockie very well though! Sadly they decided they no longer wanted to take part in this forum anymore due to the wolf hunt...

 

Well, if he didn't, then that in itself is reason enough to exclude him, and anyone else equally inept and myopic, from any involvement in working locks.

[bassplayer]

Well, if he didn't, then that in itself is reason enough to exclude him, and anyone else equally inept and myopic, from any involvement in working locks.

I duno either way, I wasn't there.

 

Going back to your point though, I agree that CRT need to make sure that lockies understand that they should only act on the instructions of the person in control of the boat. Whether I, as the person at the controls is actually in control, is another story!