Thick Ice / Moving a Narrowboat ?

[gazza]

I am qualified in

 

Vehicle Mechanic with City n Guilds level 1 - 4

Vehicle Repair & Refinishing City n Guilds level 1- 4

 

Mind thats only 16 years in the motor trade so you may be right, are you qualified in Engineering NC ?

Don't take this the wrong way....

 

Car mechanicing and spraying is a long long way from 'proper' Engineering. True, vehicle systems have moved forward a fair pace and good IT knowledge is needed, some manufacturers are using composites and clever bonding technologies but in the main this is on high end stuff and not in the usual sphere of most in the car trade.

 

In my studies we covered materials science in great detail, as an engineer we need to understand the properties of the materials we are working with or would like to utilise.

 

I also firmly believe the title Motor Engineer was lost years ago, most kids leaving tech are not a patch on their forebears in terms of practical skills and knowledge, are any taught to weld, mill, turn and bench fit to a good standard? Once essential skills that are now consigned to history with the advent of the parts fitter armed with a laptop!

So Naughty Cal, you never answered my question ?

 

Do you have a qualification in Engineering ?

If I recall she works in a civil engineering role.

[Naughty Cal]

So Naughty Cal, you never answered my question ?

 

Do you have a qualification in Engineering ?

Yes. I'm a Civil Engineer.

[GreyLady]

.

Edited October 24, 2015 by GreyLady

[Delta9]

I can't see how the glider wing video is relevant. Completely different forces are involved in that demonstration than would be involved with a sharp piece of ice puncturing a hull. They are not comparable at all.

[Naughty Cal]

Don't take this the wrong way....

 

Car mechanicing and spraying is a long long way from 'proper' Engineering. True, vehicle systems have moved forward a fair pace and good IT knowledge is needed, some manufacturers are using composites and clever bonding technologies but in the main this is on high end stuff and not in the usual sphere of most in the car trade.

 

In my studies we covered materials science in great detail, as an engineer we need to understand the properties of the materials we are working with or would like to utilise.

 

I also firmly believe the title Motor Engineer was lost years ago, most kids leaving tech are not a patch on their forebears in terms of practical skills and knowledge, are any taught to weld, mill, turn and bench fit to a good standard? Once essential skills that are now consigned to history with the advent of the parts fitter armed with a laptop!

 

If I recall she works in a civil engineering role.

The bodyshop where Liam works are finding this. They lost a good panel beater earlier this year and have just not been able to find a suitable replacement who has the right skills and quality of work.

 

You don't want and can't have muppets working on expensive cars.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 23, 2015 by Naughty Cal

[Giant]

I can't see how the glider wing video is relevant. Completely different forces are involved in that demonstration than would be involved with a sharp piece of ice puncturing a hull. They are not comparable at all.

 

My point was just that things aren't necessarily weak just because they're of plastic construction.

 

But is the concern with ice really about sharp pieces causing punctures? In the popped rivets example, surely that was the result of overall forces on the plates causing the rivets to fail rather than a well-aimed strike to the rivets themselves?

[GreyLady]

...

Edited October 23, 2015 by GreyLady

[GreyLady]

It's called testing to destruction, a normal part of development. And judging by the popped rivets leading to sinking it would seem GRP faired better in the ice than an iron hull.

Phil

I dont knor Phil, I think we will have to phone the MythBusters up and see what they come up with.

[Phil Ambrose]

I am qualified in

 

Vehicle Mechanic with City n Guilds level 1 - 4

Vehicle Repair & Refinishing City n Guilds level 1- 4

 

Mind thats only 16 years in the motor trade so you may be right, are you qualified in Engineering NC ?

Hardly qualifications that lend themselves to understanding the properties of different materials which I'm afraid you have mo grasp on. My background wad a 5 year apprenticeship as a toolmaker, I made the moulds for the first plastic heart valves, worked on various defence projects, the type 40 torpedo, missile systems, airframe construction, machines for making silicon chips ad infinitum.

Plus I have lived aboard a GRP cruiser for 10 years and on a NB for 5. I added this information in case you asked my qualification as you did of NC.

Phil

[ditchcrawler]

If ice can do that to 'real rivets' then plastic boats beware.

 

I do like rivets. :-)

There is a school of thought that one of the problems with the Titanic was she popped her rivets

[gazza]

The bodyshop where Liam works are finding this. They lost a good panel beater earlier this year and have just not been able to find a suitable replacement who has the right skills and quality of work.

 

You don't want and can't have muppets working on expensive cars.

 

 

 

 

Too true!

 

We can't find anyone worth shouting about to replace my oppo that retired in May, (although he was good enough to give us 14 1/2 years notice he was going to finish in 2015!) I am absolutely bloody knackered trying to keep up with the backlog!

 

That porky is beautiful, Liam gets his mitts on some tasty stuff by the look of it (lowered golf excepted )

[nb Innisfree]

There is a school of thought that one of the problems with the Titanic was she popped her rivets

There was a TV programme some time ago in which it showed a piece of steel from the hull of Titanic being reduced in temperature to the point it would have been at the time of the disaster, when it was hit sharply with a hammer it shattered. Apparently this is caused by too many sulphur inclusions in the original steel mix, not uncommon then. Witnesses reported loud noises similar to crockery breaking as Titanic went under, possibly from steel shattering under pressure.

[GreyLady]

Hardly qualifications that lend themselves to understanding the properties of different materials which I'm afraid you have mo grasp on. My background wad a 5 year apprenticeship as a toolmaker, I made the moulds for the first plastic heart valves, worked on various defence projects, the type 40 torpedo, missile systems, airframe construction, machines for making silicon chips ad infinitum.

Plus I have lived aboard a GRP cruiser for 10 years and on a NB for 5. I added this information in case you asked my qualification as you did of NC.

Phil

I have to disagree when you say I have no knowledge of material properties.

 

I have repaired lots of Grp body kits and Spoilers plus ive done lots of Plastic Welding/Stitching.

 

My qualifications and life experiences are not important, NC is blunt and rude end of.

 

 

 

There is a school of thought that one of the problems with the Titanic was she popped her rivets

 

Sounds possible ditchcrawler. Edited October 24, 2015 by GreyLady

[tidal]

Which is ok if that's something one has decided to accept. However, what about the moored boats one passes which have chosen not to roger their blacking only to have their blacking abraded away anyway by the movement of ice caused by passing ice breakers? My own few month old blacking in perfect condition was through to bare metal at the water (ice) line after just 2 days of this last winter. Towpath side undamaged, outboard side stripped so it was no coincidence.

"Fit ice planks" I was told and I did and what's more they worked (though in my case they were bits of scrap ply coz I'm a cheapskate)

I can't remember who told me though

[Sea Dog]

"Fit ice planks" I was told and I did and what's more they worked (though in my case they were bits of scrap ply coz I'm a cheapskate)

I can't remember who told me though

Yeah, that's a good tip if you're on an alongside mooring. Unfortunately we were out cruising when we were iced in, so ice planks weren't an option. Sometimes I guess there might be a compelling reason to move in the ice. Fir us the ice was a compelling reason to stay opposite the Queen's Head for 10 days. Actually, apart from having the blacking Rogers, it was a nice experience.

[tidal]

Yeah, that's a good tip if you're on an alongside mooring. Unfortunately we were out cruising when we were iced in, so ice planks weren't an option. Sometimes I guess there might be a compelling reason to move in the ice. Fir us the ice was a compelling reason to stay opposite the Queen's Head for 10 days. Actually, apart from having the blacking Rogers, it was a nice experience.

 

So was I but I wasn't far from a "boater who tended to overstay" who had a wealth of such material lying about (and it only cost me a couple of pints)

He was a good bloke who was far better prepared for such eventualities than me (salt water rarely freezes and this was my first time on fresh in the winter) so I too had a good time.

 

the pub was a good hike away though

[blackrose]

Lesson No.1

 

Blacking is sacrificial.

Lesson No.2

 

Sacrifice it wisely (unless you want to be back in the dock reblacking sooner than expected).

Edited October 24, 2015 by blackrose

[blackrose]

Interestingly thick ice isn't too bad its thin ice which really cuts through everything. I

I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion, but thick ice certainly took the blacking off the bow of my boats.

Bit of s sweeping statement, we DID go ice breaking in our GRP cruiser. Hull form meant the bows rodry up slightly and the weight of our 40' x 12' boat just broke it under the boat.

I also used to go weekly for fuel in a 12' x 6' dinghy which also broke ice in a similar manner and that boat was ply.

Phil

I don't think it was a sweeping statement. Bee didn't say ice sinks all GRP and wooden boats, but it's certainly sunk quite a few.

[blackrose]

I thought their main purpose was to prevent galvanic corrosion but I may be wrong. If I am, why do aluminium boats have them then?

Well, they work galvanically/sacrificially to prevent corrosion, not really to prevent galvanic corrosion. That's a slightly different subject.

 

Although the beneficial effects of using anodes to prevent corrosion may be limited, I'll use any benefit that's available.

Edited October 24, 2015 by blackrose

[blackrose]

Anodes do nothing to prevent rust. They should be called sacrificial anodes actually as they are sacrificed to protect the other metal fittings on the boat. Rust is a chemical reaction between air,water and iron. Galvanic corrosion is an electrical reaction between dissimilar metals.

I think there's some confusion here. Sacrificial anodes DO prevent rust - they prevent the chemical reaction you've described from happening on the steel by acting galvanically (and sacrificially). They work galvanically, but they don't prevent galvanic corrosion.

 

http://chemwiki.ucdavis.edu/Analytical_Chemistry/Electrochemistry/Case_Studies/Corrosion/Sacrificial_Anode

Edited October 24, 2015 by blackrose

[Phil Ambrose]

I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion, but thick ice certainly took the blacking off the bow of my boats.

 

I don't think it was a sweeping statement. Bee didn't say ice sinks all GRP and wooden boats, but it's certainly sunk quite a few.

Bee said " it sinks GRP and wooden boats" not "some" or "may sink"

Phil

[Tony Dunkley]

I think there's some confusion here. Sacrificial anodes DO prevent rust - they prevent the chemical reaction you've described from happening on the steel by acting galvanically (and sacrificially). They work galvanically, but they don't prevent galvanic corrosion.

 

http://chemwiki.ucdavis.edu/Analytical_Chemistry/Electrochemistry/Case_Studies/Corrosion/Sacrificial_Anode

 

You've got that completely arse about face, and the confusion is entirely yours.

Anodes protect against galvanic action (corrosion, or erosion to be more accurate), and do nothing to prevent rusting, which is a process of oxidation.

[Phil Ambrose]

I have to disagree when you say I have no knowledge of material properties.

 

I have repaired lots of Grp body kits and Spoilers plus ive done lots of Plastic Welding/Stitching.

 

My qualifications and life experiences are not important, NC is blunt and rude end of.

 

 

 

Sounds possible ditchcrawler.

I used the term material properties in the engineering sense, all metsls and plastics are referred to as material. Your knowledge extends to and is to limited to materials used in car manufacturing , I would guess you are very competent in your field but lacking (through on fault of you're own) a knowledge of other materials. Would you know for instance the properties of Beryllium Copper and what it could be used for? What about Hobbing Steel? What is added to Free Cutting Mild Steel and what effect the addition has.

Phil

[GreyLady]

I used the term material properties in the engineering sense, all metsls and plastics are referred to as material. Your knowledge extends to and is to limited to materials used in car manufacturing , I would guess you are very competent in your field but lacking (through on fault of you're own) a knowledge of other materials. Would you know for instance the properties of Beryllium Copper and what it could be used for? What about Hobbing Steel? What is added to Free Cutting Mild Steel and what effect the addition has.

Phil

I agree phil my knowledge of materials is limited to the motor trade, I can even spell bellyrium copper never mind say it.

 

I guess different trades and occupations are all differerent in many ways.

 

Your work sounds interesting Phil.

[mango]

Yes. They are aluminium.

 

Magnesium don't last us a season as we spend some of the year in salt water. Zinc don't protect in fresh water so we have switched to aluminium.

 

http://www.solentanodes.co.uk/collections/aluminium-volvo-anodes

 

http://www.solentanodes.co.uk/pages/zinc-aluminium-or-magnesium-anode

Thanks for that. You learn something every day. Presumably we are talking about different alloys of aluminium for the anode and whatever is to be protected. I presume that sea water is sufficient to render the protective oxide coating on the anodes effective. I don't think aluminium anodes would protect aluminium in fresh water.